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1914 replacements - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: 1914 replacements (/showthread.php?tid=56279) Pages:
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1914 replacements - Nitram Draw - 07-12-2010 IIRC there was a question in another thread about 1914 replacements. From what I remember it was said that certain units never get replacements and you could check which units don't by viewing the OOB editor. I am not sure how to read the oob. Is there a way to get a list of units that do not receive replacements? RE: 1914 replacements - jonnymacbrown - 07-12-2010 "Is there a way to get a list of units that do not receive replacements?" The ones I know right off the bat are Prussian Guard units "A" rated and French Zouaves also "A" rated. jonny:smoke: RE: 1914 replacements - Volcano Man - 07-12-2010 Well, it was never desired for people to know exactly which units do and do not get replacements in order to promote people to err on the side of caution and not piss anything away BUT, a general list: *German Guard infantry (Guard ersatz infantry DO), Guard cavalry division, and LGH brigade *French Zouaves, Colonials, BCP, BCA, anything from Africa *The BEF, in its entirety *Belgian Grenadier, Chasseurs a Pied, Carabiniers, and all of their cavalry *All engineer units on all sides (technical troops) in the early OOB, to discourage them from being used as fodder, and because they had a high degree of technical training which was not replaceable until at least a few months after the war began. ...all do not get replacements. That is obviously a generalized list, and I left some out I am sure, but a good rule of thumb is this: if the unit seems like an elite, exotic, or specialized unit, then it does not get replacements. The best way to tell of course is when you see that it never recovers losses while you are resting. Everything gets recovery (and some units get both recovery and replacements) in the late period however, since mobilization was "catching up" and also wounded were being treated. There might be more information about all of this in the notes. And before anyone asks, everything (replacement wise) has been calculated out with a great deal of thought to get a desired/intended effect. ;) Hope that helps... RE: 1914 replacements - Nitram Draw - 07-12-2010 Thanks. RE: 1914 replacements - westkent5097 - 07-14-2010 Really enjoying the game and appreciate that you have things finely balanced for what you wanted to do. Looking forward to further titles. But I'd like to dig a bit further on the BEF replacement issue. Why? 1. Because I can't help tinkering. 2. Because I think that the winnowing of the BEF in the early scenario at least might be overblown. I haven't done a study of replacement rates for all the BEF infantry yet but from my own research on 1st RWK I know they received 90 replacements on 5-6th September (these were reservists recalled back to the colours who had similar training to the BEF regulars) That's almost 10% of the battalion coming as replacements. As far as the late scenario goes they had received well over 350 men in that time period (again some were reservists, some returning wounded and some new enlistees). But by and large most of them seem to have been just as well trained as the men who were in with the Bn on day 1, if a bit unseasoned for the long marches. If this is typical of the replacement rate of a battalion in the BEF in 1914 then perhaps they should get some replacements as well as recovery? First Ypres is still going to put the nail in the coffin of the Old Army but potentially they should be a bit more durable upto that point. I'm going to go away and wrangle all the various battalion experts I know to see what they have on replacement rates from the war diaries to see if 1st RWK was atypical. If it turns out that they are typical, what would I need to change to get the BEF infantry receiving replacements in the early scenario? RE: 1914 replacements - Volcano Man - 07-14-2010 Yet again, the BEF receives recovery AFTER the early campaign so it is not as if it never recovers losses. In other words, they will regain strength after the early campaign is complete. Yes, I am aware that the RWK and other units received replacements during the early campaign, but it was very few and far between, small in number. You say 10% of the battalion returned to the colors, but that was once or maybe even twice before the end of the early campaign, not a steady stream of replacements that kept coming in, constantly until the end of the campaign. And if that were the case, it was certainly not the case for every unit according to my research. So the problem is not that they did receive strength, it is the rate and consistency in which they received it, which was well below what recovery and replacements can represent. Yet, this is what replacements and recovery does, it creates a constant stream of strength coming into the unit, which is certainly not historical for the time. This cannot be represented in the early campaign because both replacement and recovery would make them regain too much strength, much beyond the historical truth. Here is why: 1) Replacement rate is VERY powerful. The percentage applied to replacements ensures that the unit will regain that specified percent of strength EACH TURN as long as it is good order and in good supply (and in command). This replacement rate occurs regardless of the current standing strength of the unit is (which is unlike how Recovery works), because it is representing something that is independent of unit quality: actual replacements flowing it. So if you give even a 1% replacement rate to a BEF infantry battalion, then it will replace 10 men each turn, essentially 80 men a day (nearly 10% strength each day). This is obviously outrageous. Think of replacements as something that will give the unit a Borg like attribute, constantly regaining strength in addition to Recovery, which makes them very hard to kill from constant fighting. This is certainly not an attribute that the early BEF should have. 2) Recovery rate is more of what they should have, however this too is, IMO, too powerful for how they should be represented in the early campaign. The reason for this is that recovery rate, unlike replacement rate, depends on unit quality. So, with a recovery rate of 1%, and the unit quality of the BEF at A and B, it ensures that the recovery rate is actually 2% and 1.5% respectively. The good thing about recovery is that it directly depends on the unit's current standing strength (so that it recovers that specified percentage of lost strength, rather than that specified % of total strength). However, this too means that the unit can recover too much strength in the early campaign if only you get them well committed to a fight so that they lose quite a bit of strength. Get them into a fight to where they lose 1/2 their strength or more and you will be recovering quite a bit of strength to allow you to fight on at the next opportunity. Again, this doesn't quite encourage historical BEF behavior in the early campaign when resources were stretched thin, but it does encourage historical behavior in the late campaign - which is why they get recovery there. So in essence, it is a game play issue, an abstraction if you will. The BEF is already as powerful as, well, they are the most powerful thing on the 1914 battlefield. If they received either replacements or recovery then they would not be inclined to do what they historically did: run for their lives to the south until the counter attack at the Marne occurred. They need to be discouraged from making a stand and this discouragement comes from the historical truth that although they received some replacements, it wasn't at the level that neither recovery or replacement affords them. What would be historical about the situation if they could sit around and regain wholesale strength to where they could stand and fight at every canal and river between Mons and the Morins? So the short answer is this (sorry for the long wind): Unfortunately you cannot adjust the replacement rate of units since this is hard coded in the OOB, and I don't know who in their right mind would think that the BEF should get replacements because a replacement rate of just 1% would be a disaster since they would regain strength too much, too fast, too regularly. On the other hand you CAN adjust the PDT file and change recovery from 0% to 1% but this will give replacements to the *entire side*, not just to the BEF (which is another reason why it is not used in the early campaign, to create a finite feeling until mobilization has caught up and the front settled down to where field hospitals and depot units could return men to their parent formations). But, feel free to give a 1% replacement rate in the PDT to both sides if you want, that is the only way it would be fair, but as you can see I am quite committed to the current replacement and recovery rates in the early OOB. ;) Hope that helps... RE: 1914 replacements - jonnymacbrown - 07-14-2010 "If they received either replacements or recovery then they would not be inclined to do what they historically did: run for their lives to the south until the counter attack at the Marne occurred." I don't have any problem with the replacements or recovery rates. My only comment is this: The BEF was running because Sir John didn't want to fight. Me on the other hand, General Jonny; He is going to stand some ground with the BEF, dish out some hits to von Kluck or whoever the hell else comes down the pike and put the big hurt on the Hun. I'm not running from anybody, at least not in this wargame. jonny:smoke: RE: 1914 replacements - Volcano Man - 07-14-2010 (07-14-2010, 03:31 PM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: My only comment is this: The BEF was running because Sir John didn't want to fight. Me on the other hand, General Jonny; He is going to stand some ground with the BEF, dish out some hits to von Kluck or whoever the hell else comes down the pike and put the big hurt on the Hun. I'm not running from anybody, at least not in this wargame. jonny:smoke: Well sure, and that is precisely why if the BEF stands and fights then they must be dwindled or it doesn't make sense - we get into situations of, well, absurdity on what the BEF can do with hindsight (they must be hard pressed). But you might be missing most of the point about Sir John; it was cause and effect. He wasn't simply running because he lost his nerve, although that is what many historians love to paint a picture of, you know, because it couldn't be that the Germans had anything to do with the BEF retreating. Sir John was running because he was under constant pressure, in high fatigue from the fighting and retreating, and he was alone on the flank most of the time, with the 5e Armee not cooperating too much with him and Sordet on the left doing who knows what - dangling between what could have been a double envelopment by 2.Armee to the east, 1.Armee to the north and HKK.2 to the west if he did not fall back. He fought back when he could, and fell back when he had to but historians love to paint him as the bumbling buffoon, but certainly his strength of character, subordinate management, and his nerve were not his greatest qualities (he wasn't the greatest commander, sure). Of course Sir John also did not want to be the one that went down in history as having lost the entire professional army of Britain in one campaign. So, it really has nothing to do with what you, as the BEF commander wants to do, it is all about what the Germans force you to do and how much space they afford you to work with. This of again is directly opposite to your other grand idea as the Germans to completely avoid them, to do so allows the BEF to do as they please. RE: 1914 replacements - jonnymacbrown - 07-15-2010 "This of again is directly opposite to your other grand idea as the Germans to completely avoid them, to do so allows the BEF to do as they please." As the German I think I'd like to create a bit more space. jonny :whis: RE: 1914 replacements - westkent5097 - 07-15-2010 OK Ed you win! :bow: The long winded answer was just what I needed to hear. You know far more about the mechanics of the game than I ever will, and I can see you're very attached to the way things are. I'll just have to stop tinkering and have at the beastly hun instead. |
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