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FWWC Movement Rates--help! - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: FWWC Movement Rates--help! (/showthread.php?tid=74515) Pages:
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FWWC Movement Rates--help! - neonlicht - 03-10-2021 I'm currently messing around in the FWWC EP Editor, trying to make a custom scenario. Having already given up trying to get the AI to follow basic orders & plans, I've now turned my attention to Movement Rates, and am again confused! Historically, movement rates varied according to factors such as: size of the unit (the larger the unit, the slower it moved), terrain, conditions, organization/efficiency and so on. Nevertheless, as a rough rule of thumb, infantry were realistically expected to cover 4km an hour and maybe 24km a day. The scale of the FWWC EP game is 1km per hex, with 2-hour day turns. And yet my units are moving at very slow rates: maybe only 2 hexes a turn. That's 2km in 2 hours---over clear terrain, during the day, with no enemy in sight. That's too slow surely? I would expect movement rates to be x2, x3, even x4 faster than this. And cavalry seem to move barely faster than infantry. And so I'd really like to understand this. The JTS game designers are experienced in wargames, and know their stuff, and I trust them to make the right calls. But I'm puzzled why movement rates are so meagre in this game. I must be missing something! Please can someone explain the rationale behind the "vanilla" or "stock" movement rates? Many thanks in advance. :-) RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - Mr Grumpy - 03-11-2021 So what is the quality of these units and although the terrain is clear what are the ground conditions, is it maybe mud? Is there a storm where movement rates are doubled? Are the units moving to a higher elevation? All of these will effect how far a unit can move over clear terrain. 
RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - neonlicht - 03-11-2021 Hi & many thanks for this---appreciated. In my test the weather is clear, the terrain is open/clear, the units are on a primary road, and there's no change in elevation along the route. The infantry units are graded C (German) and D (Russian). In both cases, these units are able to move 2 hexes (2km in game scale) per 1 turn (2 hours in game time) when not in Travel Mode and 3 hexes when in Travel Mode. And it seems not to matter if they move along the primary road or across open fields. In either case, they are moving 2km over 2 hours (not in Travel Mode) and 3km over 2 hours (in Travel Mode). If you then add woods, marshes, streams, hills etc. into the mix, then travel rates fall even more. And if you then add combat, night turns, disruption effects, and the cost of changing units into and out of Travel Mode, then movement rates fall yet further. All these factors combined have the effect of making scenarios based on real-life events difficult to complete within the historical timeframe because---in real life---units were covering ground faster. I know that it's possible to modify the game and change both the time scale and the "speed" rating for units. But I'm interested to know why the game is simulating a movement rate of (effectively) 1km per hour for average troops moving along open, even, terrain in good conditions? Maybe I'm missing some important reason for this design decision? [attachment=5028][attachment=5029][attachment=5030][attachment=5031][attachment=5032] RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - Ricky B - 03-11-2021 (03-11-2021, 07:48 AM)neonlicht Wrote: Hi & many thanks for this---appreciated.I am not sure what data your example screenshots are based on. I just set up a test in EP with a single unit, C quality, in T mode, at an intersection of different road types. My test shows the unit can move 6 hexes on the primary road, and 4 hexes even mostly cross country into a forest hex, if a couple of hexes are on the primary road. The non-road movement was actually better than I expected to see. [attachment=5033] So this would indicate marching on a good road around 36 km per day, resting at night. My test was based on all game default files and unit. Now a unit not in T mode will be slower, and I would expect that. A battalion formed in line rather than a column (T mode) isn't going to move nearly as fast long term. Maybe attach your test files, that would make it easier to see why you are getting the results you see, as they don't make any sense to me. Thanks Rick RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - neonlicht - 03-11-2021 Hi Rick & thanks for this---appreciated. I looked at your screenshot and yeah---looks right to me. But in my test scenario things look different. I'm using default files too: Parameter Data="East Front 1914 (early)"; OOB="East Prussia '14". And the game version is 1.03. I made a further test (using the same files) with B-grade and D-grade units. I saw no difference in movement rates between them (I had expected to see some disparity between B & D units). On a level primary road, in good conditions, both units could move 4 hexes in Travel Mode and 2 Hexes not in Travel Mode. On a secondary road this was reduced to 3 hexes (Travel Mode) and 2 hexes (not Travel Mode). The things is, each turn represents 2 hours of time. And so these infantry units are moving a maximum of 4km in 2 hours. In rough terrain, or in combat, or as morale drops, this movement rate falls further. I guess that, if turns were 1 hour (not 2) then these movement rates would look more reasonable? Anyway, I was just curious about the rationale behind the movement rates. :-) Test Scenario Data (Couldn't upload the actual file) 24 1914 1 1 12 0 0 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 100 100 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 CJS Insterburg.map East Prussia '14.oob East Front 1914 (early).pdt 1 16 18 130617 1 1 981 0 0 256 0 1 18 16 130614 1 1 981 0 0 256 0 1 21 22 130616 1 1 981 0 0 0 0 1 23 17 130615 1 1 981 0 0 0 0 1 24 5 127641 1 1 1076 0 0 0 0 1 27 8 127642 4 4 1076 0 0 256 0 1 29 1 127640 1 1 1076 0 0 0 0 1 31 6 127584 1 1 1076 0 0 256 0 1 37 18 130620 1 1 981 0 0 0 0 1 37 19 130621 1 1 981 0 0 0 0 1 37 20 130622 1 1 981 0 0 256 0 1 37 21 130623 1 1 981 0 0 256 0 1 37 22 130624 1 1 120 0 0 256 0 0 [attachment=5034][attachment=5035][attachment=5036][attachment=5037] RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - ComradeP - 03-11-2021 The terrain in your screenshot has Field graphics, not Clear. The primary road movement does seem odd, as units should be able to move 5 (D quality) or 6 (C and above) hexes along a primary road in T-mode if movement cost is 4 MP's. Did you make any changes to the .pdt file? I don't have EP '14 installed at the moment, so sadly can't compare the files. RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - neonlicht - 03-11-2021 Hi and thanks for this---appreciated. :-) I don't think I changed any values in the PDT files, but just to make sure, I pasted into my directory the PDT and OOB files from the last update. Then I loaded up my test scenario and got the same results as before. You are right about the field graphics but---as I understand it---fields in the East Prussia game have the same movement cost as Clear? For example, see this quote from the game's "Notes" PDF, page 44 ... "However, on the Eastern Front farms were generally flat and sprawling fields of grain, perhaps with a few dotted barns or an occasional wooden fence, but mostly just wide open fields. Because of that, the farm fields in East Prussia '14, and on the Eastern Front in general, only have a protection of -10%, a terrain height of 0 meters, and a non-mechanized movement cost equal to that of Clear terrain." RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - unonimus - 03-11-2021 Sir, are you sure that your infantry were on Travel Mode ('T' key)? You have to be on Travel Mode (a.k.a T mode) in order to utilise roads. It seems that you know that your machine gunners have to be on T mode to move, but turning them into T mode uses 1/3 of their Movement allowance on that turn. Moving them on the same turn as they changed the mode isn't a good way to see their speeds. I am not sure whether those were on T mode or you changed them to T mode on that turn, however. I don't have East Prussia '14, but I have France '14 and I checked infantry speed on the road. They can go 6 hexes per turn in T mode on primary roads. RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - neonlicht - 03-11-2021 Hi and many thanks for this---appreciated! :-) Yes, the units were placed on the map in Travel Mode, and so, on Turn 1, they are already in Travel Mode. I saw your screenshot---many thanks---but I see that it is from the France '14 game, and so I am wondering if the movement costs/'values are different in the East Prussia '14 game? RE: FWWC Movement Rates--help! - unonimus - 03-11-2021 Movement Cost: Foot Clear: 6 MP Water: 0 MP Field: 10 MP Brush: 8 MP Vineyard: 12 MP Orchard: 8 MP Forest: 12 MP Marsh: 16 MP Swamp: 18 MP Jungle: 16 MP Beach: 8 MP Broken: 14 MP Sand: 8 MP Rough: 18 MP Bocage: 20 MP Village: 12 MP Town: 12 MP City: 20 MP Industrial: 30 MP Impassible: 0 MP Trail: 6 MP Secondary: 5 MP Primary: 4 MP Rail: 6 MP Stream: 6 MP Gully: 3 MP Canal: -1 MP River: -1 MP Ford: 6 MP Lt Bridge: 1 MP Med Bridge: 1 MP Hvy Bridge: 0 MP Dune: 6 MP Embank: 6 MP Dike: 9 MP Escarp: 20 MP Cliff: -1 MP Movement Modifier: Foot Normal Conditions: 100% Soft Conditions: 130% Mud Conditions: 150% Snow Conditions: 115% Frozen Conditions: 150% Movement Modifiers: ZOC Movement Multiplier: 0 Movement Elevation Modifier: 6 MP per 100 meters That unit went by primary roads, the last movement was downhill so it isn't subject to elevation modifier. Heavy bridges cost 0 points. Conditions do not matter for primary road movement but it is Normal. So a unit with 24 movement points went 6 kilometres in a turn, all of which by road movement on a primary road (4 movement points). |
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