Re-touching history? - Printable Version

Re-touching history? - Printable Version

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RE: Re-touching history? - Dog Soldier - 06-22-2010

(06-21-2010, 07:10 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: Altering history is making truth a lie.
HSL

Ever try to read Soviet era history? Hard to tell which self serving memoir has a grain of truth in it.
Glad there are professional historians trying to sort it out.

Dog Soldier

RE: Re-touching history? - Crossroads - 06-22-2010

[Image: FokkerD.jpg]

http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/fokker-suomi-sarjan-72520-p-3578.html

EDIT: Re-touching history, Part Two
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force#History

The Swedish count Eric von Rosen gave the Finnish White government its second aircraft, a Thulin Typ D. A photograph of this plane can be found in the book by Christopher Shores. The pilot, Lieutenant Nils Kindberg, flew the aircraft to Vaasa on 6 March 1918, having von Rosen as a passenger. As this aircraft was given against the will of the Swedish government, and no flight permit had been given, it resulted in a 100 kronor fine for Kindberg for leaving the country without permission. This aircraft is considered by some to be the first aircraft of the Finnish Air Force, since the Finnish Air Force didn't exist during the Civil War, and since it was only the Red side who flew a few aircraft with the help of some Russian pilots. The von Rosen aircraft was given the designation F.1. The air force was officially called the "aviation force" during its first years. The Finnish Air Force is one of the oldest air forces of the world – the RAF was founded as the first independent branch on 1 April, 1918 and the Swedish Flygvapnet in 1925.

Von Rosen had painted his personal good luck charm on the Thulin Typ D aircraft. This charm – a blue square with a 'plus' symbol in the middle of it, the ancient symbol of good luck – was adopted as the insignia of the Finnish Air Force. The white circular background was created when the Finns tried to paint over the advertisement from the Thulin air academy. The square with a 'plus' symbol in it was officially taken into use after an order by Mannerheim on 18 March 1918. The FAF had to change the insignia after 1945, due to an Allied Control Commission decree, where the square with a 'plus' symbol in it had to be abandoned due to the association with a certain political movement in a WW II era Germany.

RE: Re-touching history? - Crossroads - 06-29-2010

See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil. Smoking included. Accordingly, doing my part to protect the innocent. I started the work with Wiki.

RE: Re-touching history? - GUNSLNGR - 06-30-2010

When my grandfather died, about 20 years ago, I received an old pocket watch and chain. The chain contained a charm at the end of it that reads on one side "Good luck to the Bearer." On the other side is a number of mystic symbols, to include a swastika.

I show it to people and many are "shocked" - I then explain the watch is over 100 years old and this was well before the age of National Socialism. It just shows that people often hold historical events in judgement based on their current ideologies of what is right and what is wrong.

I wonder that if they find a cure for cancer, making it relatively safe to smoke, will Churchill get his cigar back?

RE: Re-touching history? - Gasbag - 06-30-2010

(06-22-2010, 02:44 PM)Dog Soldier Wrote:
(06-21-2010, 07:10 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: Altering history is making truth a lie.
HSL

Ever try to read Soviet era history? Hard to tell which self serving memoir has a grain of truth in it.
Glad there are professional historians trying to sort it out.

Dog Soldier

I could say much the same thing about some post war German sources. For example Hubert Meyer's 12th SS divisional history has no mention at all of the murder of Canadian POWs during the Normandy campaign. The original hardcover version of Michael Wittmann...of the Leibstandarte by Patrick Agte read like an SS propaganda leaflet. I don't know if the Stackpole version was cleaned up (better edited) but the original was almost nauseating in it's worship of Wittmann & company.

RE: Re-touching history? - Crossroads - 06-30-2010

(06-30-2010, 12:38 AM)GUNSLNGR Wrote: When my grandfather died, about 20 years ago, I received an old pocket watch and chain. The chain contained a charm at the end of it that reads on one side "Good luck to the Bearer." On the other side is a number of mystic symbols, to include a swastika.

I show it to people and many are "shocked" - I then explain the watch is over 100 years old and this was well before the age of National Socialism. It just shows that people often hold historical events in judgement based on their current ideologies of what is right and what is wrong.

I wonder that if they find a cure for cancer, making it relatively safe to smoke, will Churchill get his cigar back?

Your grand old man was not a hockey fan, was he? I bumped into this while doing mindless surfing at work (shhh don't tell anyone)

[Image: edmonton-swastikas-3.jpg]

Edmonton Swastikas 1916

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/hockeyists/swastikas/pic-edmt-swas%201916.html

RE: Re-touching history? - Dog Soldier - 07-01-2010

(06-30-2010, 07:01 PM)Gasbag Wrote:
(06-22-2010, 02:44 PM)Dog Soldier Wrote:
(06-21-2010, 07:10 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: Altering history is making truth a lie.
HSL

Ever try to read Soviet era history? Hard to tell which self serving memoir has a grain of truth in it.
Glad there are professional historians trying to sort it out.

Dog Soldier

I could say much the same thing about some post war German sources. For example Hubert Meyer's 12th SS divisional history has no mention at all of the murder of Canadian POWs during the Normandy campaign. The original hardcover version of Michael Wittmann...of the Leibstandarte by Patrick Agte read like an SS propaganda leaflet. I don't know if the Stackpole version was cleaned up (better edited) but the original was almost nauseating in it's worship of Wittmann & company.

You are of course correct. Many German officers doctored their memoirs also. In fact, several re-fought the war in their books and won! We know such armchair history assumes the other side does not react differently to the new strategy proposed, thus rending such analysis as fantasy.

One of the largest myths is the inexhaustible man power of the soviet Union as an excuse for poor German leadership and lack of correct intelligence. The Soviets were so short on man power towards the end of the war, they impressed many formations from recently conquered German allies in the Balkans to hold quiet zones of the front. No need to trust these units, even with some corseting or "supervision" by Soviet forces if you have plenty troops of your own. In such a case one would just hold them in POW camps for several months as was done in 1939 to the Polish units facing the Soviets when their country surrendered to Germany.

Dog Soldier

RE: Re-touching history? - GUNSLNGR - 07-01-2010

(06-30-2010, 10:59 PM)Cpl K. Kat Wrote: Your grand old man was not a hockey fan, was he? I bumped into this while doing mindless surfing at work (shhh don't tell anyone)

Naw, we're from Alabama - not much hockey or frozen surfaces for that matter.

The fact that I find a couple of them attractive is wrong on soooo many levels...

RE: Re-touching history? - Crossroads - 07-01-2010

(06-30-2010, 07:01 PM)Gasbag Wrote:
(06-22-2010, 02:44 PM)Dog Soldier Wrote:
(06-21-2010, 07:10 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: Altering history is making truth a lie.
HSL

Ever try to read Soviet era history? Hard to tell which self serving memoir has a grain of truth in it.
Glad there are professional historians trying to sort it out.

Dog Soldier

I could say much the same thing about some post war German sources. For example Hubert Meyer's 12th SS divisional history has no mention at all of the murder of Canadian POWs during the Normandy campaign. The original hardcover version of Michael Wittmann...of the Leibstandarte by Patrick Agte read like an SS propaganda leaflet. I don't know if the Stackpole version was cleaned up (better edited) but the original was almost nauseating in it's worship of Wittmann & company.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8762969.stm

An interesting discussion, or rather, an interesting conclusion regarding history.

How should history be written? Should we record the evil men do in order not to repeat it? Or should we emphasise the bravery the people have shown in battles, protecting their values? Or both?

What should we include? What should we leave out? What should we not only leave out, but ban alltogether? (I am referring to initiatives in EU to ban both Nazi and Communist/Bolshevik symbols).

Little by little, the future generations will loose a grip of what really happened :-/

RE: Re-touching history? - GUNSLNGR - 07-02-2010

(07-01-2010, 05:15 PM)Cpl K. Kat Wrote: An interesting discussion, or rather, an interesting conclusion regarding history.

How should history be written? Should we record the evil men do in order not to repeat it? Or should we emphasise the bravery the people have shown in battles, protecting their values? Or both?

What should we include? What should we leave out? What should we not only leave out, but ban alltogether? (I am referring to initiatives in EU to ban both Nazi and Communist/Bolshevik symbols).

Little by little, the future generations will loose a grip of what really happened :-/

Churchill, I believe, wrote that "history is written by the victors." But, I believe that is not really true any longer. In the U.S., revisionist history has run amok. If a piece of history doesn't meet with someone's current social/political viewpoint then it is either left out, dramatically changed, or villianized.

The rule has become: if the myth is more interesting than the truth, print the myth. German military superiority may be among those printed myths. The problem starts when the myth becomes reality to many, the truth is discarded and the creation of things like a Hitler become easier.

I don't believe its just future generations that have lost a grip on history, it's our own as well. The purpose of history is view how you got to where you are today, not to judge those who have come before you.