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Mixed order in HPS NC - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Black Powder & Cold Steel (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=163) +---- Forum: The Napoleonic Wars (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=165) +---- Thread: Mixed order in HPS NC (/showthread.php?tid=56117) |
RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - FM WarB - 07-11-2010 Dare I even mention that a road march column is something far different than an attack column? Think it took time for a battalion to change from four abreast on a road to a one or two company (in line) frontage for an attack column? And cav most oft charged in line formation... RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - SolInvictus202 - 07-11-2010 (07-11-2010, 08:19 PM)FM WarB Wrote: Dare I even mention that a road march column is something far different than an attack column? Think it took time for a battalion to change from four abreast on a road to a one or two company (in line) frontage for an attack column? Thanks for mentioning this....I didn't want to get involved in this...but that is one of the major historical issues with HPS.... attack column has nothing to do with marching column in realitiy... and cavalry DID charge in line...when it charged in column...only to wheel right or left and then present the line to the enemy (Kellermann at Marengo i.e.)..., due to reasons of frontage OR because they wanted to focus the entire regiment/squadron to focus on one point... RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - JasonC - 08-10-2010 To fight the French correctly as they actually maneuvered and fought, you first have to edit the default pdt to let columns fire at 1/3 of line firepower, instead of 1/5 or 1/8 or those other ridiculous figures. Also make sure the skirmisher divisor for infantry is set at 6 (which is the default). That means they are 9 deep formations, which is the standard French "column of divisions", meaning each battalion deployed on a frontage of 2 companies, with each front line company having 2 others ranked behind it, and each company itself in the usual 3 ranks. Now that a battalion in column actually means a column of divisions, it is easy to recreate "order mixte" in all its glory and flexibility. First stack 2 battalions in column formation in the same hex. Now detach the 2 skirmish companies. But *leave them in the hex* with the columns. They represent the 2 companies across the middle of the formation in line formation, 3 deep. The columns represent the "anchored flanks" in column of divisions, 9 deep. Suppose the original battalions were 450 men. When they detach skirmish companies, each is 1/6 of that or 75 men. The remaining battalions are 375 men each therefore. In fire combat, you shoot with 375/3 = 125 men from each of the columns, and 75 men from each of the skirmishers. A total of 400 men are firing - basically the same firepower you'd get from a single 3 rank line instead. But with twice the melee strength, melee bonuses, column movement, and immediate recover to the intended formation from square, ability to split up to flank and engulf a lone battalion opponent, etc. When you want to shelter the formation from e.g. enemy infantry lines in good order, the skirmishers can advance one hex each and screen the regimental column instead. That is the ordinary way to fight French line infantry. Meanwhile your light battalions should be deployed as singles behind "doubled" skirmishers, 2 detached companies to a hex, with the remainder centered behind them to put a ZOC in their hex, prevent easy cavalry overruns, and to recycle companies to top off ammo or consolidate fatigues. It can be in dead ground and rest to recover fatigues etc. Fighting in this fashion, the light portion of the army can shoot with 2/3rds of its manpower at any point in time and the line portion of the army with 4/9ths. Add interleaved gun batteries and leave intervals for easier maneuver, to avoid rout contagion, and for cavalry to pass through when required. This way of fighting is far superior to one battalion in line in each hex, all lined up right next to each other. It is above all less brittle to disorganization by enemy fire. To see it work properly, morale levels and any optionals modifying them have to be reasonable - not the "80% elite" stuff I see all too often in the default OOBs. The reason lines fail is their high firepower hits skirmish companies in open order and gets quartered, and above all their hits only fatigue or disorder a few companies. Meanwhile the replies disorder whole battalions. Once a third or so of the lines are disordered, the heavier ordre mixte or regimental columns can charge the disordered ones and push into them in melee. With twice the depth and good order vs. disordered and column bonus and held fire before melee and a leader present... When a tired and melee-beaten disordered line then routs, it spreads its disorder to the surrounding battalions. Disordered lines are basically impossible to maneuver in tight fighting, once overall (division, corps level) integrity has been lost. Those that don't rout can't get into square from disordered, and get ridden down by cavalry, and the remainder get engulfed by advancing infantry columns that hit their flanks. That's the scheme and it works great. Just don't turn on anything that limits routs, and insist on realistic low morale levels. If everyone is a quality 9 superman, they will stand still forever and shoot each other down to the last man - not what actually happened. When a line is going to disorder in fire combat contact in half an hours, one long line of battalions is an invitation to corps scale rout. The last army to actually fight that way was the Prussians at Jena and it was hopeless. (The Brit use of lines was quite different BTW, and not remotely "all on line firing all the time in 2 rank line"). RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - Dog Soldier - 08-14-2010 I am enjoying this thread. The HPS Napoleonic games baffled me for a long time. This thread is a great insight to how the historical formations should work in the game. Can you continue with an explanation of how the thin red line worked? I suppose the use of the reverse slope keeps the line intact until it engaged by the approaching French columns. Dog Soldier RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - bwv - 08-17-2010 The Brits employed a two-row line formation instead of the three rows used by everyone else. The British troops had improved their marksmanship and fire rate during the American Revolution when they ran into the better aimed fire of the colonists. They found that the 2 line could fire at the same rate as the 3 line formation but with 50% greater firepower and frontage. You are correct about the reverse slope protecting the integrity of the line from artillery and skirmisher fire until it engaged the columns. RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - Dog Soldier - 08-17-2010 So, in game turns this translates into better firepower numbers for British units of the same size and type of other nationalities? Dog Soldier RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - bwv - 08-18-2010 yes, a unit of British regulars in 2-line formation will typically inflict 50% or more casualites when it fires than a similar size French unit in line RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - JasonC - 08-26-2010 Just getting a firepower bonus has practically nothing to do with it. Incidentally, Brit forces ought to have a 3 times higher low ammo chance when they mostly fight in 2 rank line, compared to French fighting in mixed columns and skirmishers. They aren't shooting any straighter and their ammo pouches are not any deeper. But here is how to fight the British for real, instead of the cartoon or ACW version of one line of battalions in every hex, each in line formation. That way lies sorrow, as previously explained. They will get shot by batteries and skirmishers, they will disorder, they will be charged once in disorder, and they will never get back to a coordinated formation. Consider a typical British division with 2 brigades each of 4 battalions, plus 2 attached 6 gun batteries. Assume it has a defensive mission and some terrain is available - in the best case, a crestline. But just a stand of rye that blocks sight front to back will serve, if you don't have a hill handy. Put the 2 batteries, unlimbered, on the crest line 3 hexes apart in the center of the intended defended frontage. They have the same facing. This creates a zone 6 hexes long of range 2 canister fire zone. It also enables the whole division to engage in ranged fire combat while the infantry remains unengaged. Next, position all of the formed infantry in a single line in column formation *4 hexes behind the crest*, each next to the other and with the same facing, towards that crest. We aren't done, but I will explain the deployment by movements from this base line of the division. One brigade is on the right, one on the left. Each has a leader, and the division leader is in the middle of the line. Now detach a skirmish company from each battalion and advance them all the way to the crestline. That means the batteries each have a company defending them, and the entire crestline to a width of 800 yards is lined by skirmish companies, one per hex. Notice also that this means the *visible* portion of the division is all low target density, poor targets. Also notice it means attacking infantry cannot just walk past the crest, and can only make it *onto* the crest if it first walks through the ranged artillery fire and then melees the skirmish line. It also means the sort of unit likely to make it onto the crest is either formed infantry capable of pushing back the skirmishers (against uphill and held fire melee "adds"), or cavalry. Just skirmishers are not likely to do it. Now, starting with the battalion on the right end of the line, advance *every other* battalion, 3 hexes, to a position immediately behind the crestline. The brigade commanders can go with, but the division command should not. Notice, this puts a solid line of ZOCs across the crestline, supporting the skirmish companies. Also notice, all of the formed men are still out of sight. Also notice, every skirmish company can rejoin its issuing battalion in one move. Also notice, the rear rank of battalions is fully sheltered from anything going on along the crest, but can reach any position along it in one move - with several good order battalions available to reach every location. You don't need to put the battalions into line until you see enemy formed infantry approach. If you see cavalry approach, go into square instead. (This is the famous "checkerboard" of squares that broke the French cavalry charges, and that the Brits fought in at least as often as in line). If cavalry attacks, the skirmishers shelter in the front rank battalions, which form square. The guns "decrew" but are recrewed if and when the charge is repulsed. If a square is broken, or disordered and fails to form and is cut up, it may well rout away. There is a second line of battalions that "self seal" the breech this makes in the first line. The rear squares can advance one hex to close it off more tightly if and when this happens. Notice there are intervals for supporting cavalry to countercharge through, maneuver around the infantry, etc. The squares immediately behind the crest with skirmishers added, punish enemy cavalry for lingering on or past the crest, with continual "lots o littles" musketry. Notice, there is no place free of defending infantry ZOCs for enemy guns to set up, with sight past the crest. Not until some of your battalions are broken, at least - and when that happens, the enemy who did it will be using the location. Then hopefully shot off the crest, and a line of ZOCs behind it reformed. So they send infantry instead. Fine. Artillery greets them on the way in. When they get close enough to melee the guns, you can limber and withdraw them. If you need to buy time for this, the skirmish line can briefly step off the crest down the front slope to hold off the enemy long enough for the guns to pull out. The formed battalions all go into line at this point. Enemy skirmishers can shoot all day from below the crest line. But they are shooting uphill at skirmisher targets and aren't going to hit anything, and if they do hit a few men it will be without consequence. So they send formed, to melee your skirmish line and push onto the crest. Fine. Where they have pushed onto the crest, notice the resulting tactical situation. They must enter the front hex of a formed 2 rank line infantry battalion. They must reach this location at the conclusion of a melee. You should go next, and fire at them in your offensive fire phase, when hits will disorder them. Disordering one battalion in a larger stack will "lock" them all into column, if they wanted to deploy, and also prevent them from making it to a good order square. OK, but supposed they press on, morale being good and numbers permitting, and melee into one of your infantry lines. Suppose they defeat it and it runs away. This is as good as it gets for one attacking formation. OK, so then where does he have to be? In a location previously occupied by one of your formed battalions, in the front rank. Look at the interior 2 cases. Each such square is 2 hexes from another formed line battalion in the front rank, separated 180 degrees from each other. Nobody gets to face 4 hexsides with all component battalions. Somebody gets a flank. There are also 2 hexes ahead of the intruding formation available. It is necessarily 1 hex past the crest at this point, so 3 hexes from the entire rear rank. You can put 1 or 2 rear rank battalions on him, easily, in addition to any front rank ones that can pivot to flank them. The rear rank is in fact close enough to reach one of the intruder's flanks, themselves, including the cost of a pivot to get there with the right facing etc. Now, follow also the temporal sequence of the intruding formation, to get an idea of its fatigue and order state by this point. It was shot at by artillery on the way in. It was shot at by skirmishers on the crest. It meleed uphill into skirmishers, and won pretty easily. It was shot at point blank by good order 2 rank line infantry. It meleed formed infantry and managed to win. Now it faces flanking infantry fire at point blank range by multiple good order battalions. One of them will deliver hits, and likely through a flank. They will be disordered by the melee with formed immediately prior, and fatigues somewhat by the melees and previous fire. Let morale failure carry them away... That is a darn sight more complicated than just line up all the battalions next to each other in ACW fashion and try to fire a lot. It is a lot more effective, too. Further points on operating the formation described in the previous post. The battalions are far enough from each other that one being defeated and running off will not disorder the whole formation. The second rank exists to provide *local counterattacks* that defend the integrity of the formation. These are generally delivered as point blank musket fire through a flank facing, not with the bayonet. When one or more battalions are destroyed in the course of a long day of fighting, the *rear rank* thins to 3, then 2 battalions. The front rank is not impaired. When locally this or that battalion is disordered by enemy action, it can immediately back out of the fighting. It is "relieved" by a replacement from the second rank, which is in good order. The disordered formation reorders once out of contact and thus unpressured, and takes over the local reserve role vacate by its reliever. We say, it is a system of ranks and reliefs. The whole formation continually presents good order formed infantry to any attacker. It really doesn't matter what he does, he will have to stand for another blast of good order rank 2 line infantry fire. Then stand it again. Then stand it again. You get the idea. You aren't trying to fire more than the enemy forever, or to get every man in the formation to fire, all at once. You are trying to outlast the enemy, to out-order him, to out-fresh him. Lines just accomplish this with economy of manpower and plenty of inflicted hurt. RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - jonnymacbrown - 08-26-2010 "The guns "decrew" but are recrewed if and when the charge is repulsed.: So they send infantry instead. Fine. Artillery greets them on the way in. When they get close enough to melee the guns, you can limber and withdraw them." I don't believe you can 'decrew' a battery in HPS. In the old Wellington's Victory game that was a good option. But there is not provision for that in HPS nor in BG. There are no crews. jonny :conf: RE: Mixed order in HPS NC - FM WarB - 08-26-2010 The only way a battery can decrew is if opposing cavalry overruns it and does not capture it *poof it's gone* by melee. Most players are careful enough with their cav to melee, not overrun opposing artillery. Exposing artillery forward of friendly infantry is a sure way to lose it in HPS Nappy games. For the attacking french player, using combined arms and advancing his infantry "checkerboard" style, destroying enemy artillery deployed on the crest is a good start to the attack. I know Wellington deployed his guns forward of his infantry on the crest historically, but it just does not work in these games. I have fond memories of manhandling those crew (and ammo) counters in Wellington's Victory. Just the sort of thing computers should be good for... |
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