Have default optional rules changed? - Printable Version

Have default optional rules changed? - Printable Version

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RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Green - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 09:00 AM)dto Wrote:
(12-22-2020, 08:11 AM)Green Wrote: There has been no change to the default rules for Bulge. I suspect you are looking at the recommended default rules for the 'Herbstnebel' campaign. This is a Mod and the rules suggested only apply to this Mod.

I would read the article on "The effects of optional rules when used in PzC, MC & FWWC" posted in the Important Threads section above to get a better understanding of the consequences of these rules.

I just uninstalled Bulge Gold and reinstalled Bulge Gold. The 16_01s --- which I think is the standard campaign -- has Alt Fire and Delayed Disruption checked as default.

Michael

Are you saying that when you press the 'default' button on the bottom of the Optional Rules Dialog, that it selects the Alt Fire and Delayed Disruption Reporting rules even if these were not already selected?

I am not sure what is happening here but it seems highly unlikely that the default rules would change as a result of the update. Particularly since this is not mentioned in the Change Log.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - dto - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 09:15 AM)Green Wrote:
(12-22-2020, 09:00 AM)dto Wrote:
(12-22-2020, 08:11 AM)Green Wrote: There has been no change to the default rules for Bulge. I suspect you are looking at the recommended default rules for the 'Herbstnebel' campaign. This is a Mod and the rules suggested only apply to this Mod.

I would read the article on "The effects of optional rules when used in PzC, MC & FWWC" posted in the Important Threads section above to get a better understanding of the consequences of these rules.

I just uninstalled Bulge Gold and reinstalled Bulge Gold. The 16_01s --- which I think is the standard campaign -- has Alt Fire and Delayed Disruption checked as default.

Michael

Are you saying that when you press the 'default' button on the bottom of the Optional Rules Dialog, that it selects the Alt Fire and Delayed Disruption Reporting rules even if these were not already selected?

I am not sure what is happening here but it seems highly unlikely that the default rules would change as a result of the update. Particularly since this is not mentioned in the Change Log.

Yup. When I clicked the Default button on the Options menu, the checkmarks cleared.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Green - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 09:55 AM)dto Wrote: Yup. When I clicked the Default button on the Options menu, the checkmarks cleared.

That makes sense. The optional rules selected will always be those that you used for the last scenario that you setup. Pressing the default button resets them to their original default values.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Strela - 12-22-2020

All,

Firstly, thanks for scaring me with the commentary re Default Optional rules and the defaults being different to prior.

Glad to see it is working as intended.

Please let me comment on some of the thoughts in this thread.

I know there is vocal minority that want many of the optional rules folded into the normal rules and less choices to be made.

Please understand that this is not planned to happen for the following reasons;

We are supporting in some cases games that were released 20+ years ago. We do not want to break games that were designed with particular rules or nuances at that time. We also do not have the resources or time to go back and test them with the '2020 recommended' rule set.
John Tiller for that reason has tended to make a call on when a rule is 'benign' and won't break existing games and include it in the game engine, or it is a risk and it is included as an optional rule.
We have included mods and other scenario as a service to the community. We have also ensured that where the mod designer has a different series of recommended rules, that there is a document laying that out and explaining the rationale. If this becomes too hard, we will start to remove mods as we don't need the angst being voiced in this thread.
We admit there have been some missteps with the use of optional rules (Japan '45 for example), but that will be tested and corrected.
As game designers, we are trying to reflect some more esoteric situations and that is resulting in some rules like 'Enhanced Patrolling' which allows us to reflect the resistance movements in Scheldt '44. Something that you rarely see in other games. Both the PzC team and Ed Williams is driving this and we are unapologetic for wanting to cover off situations many of you have rarely played before.

I could go on, but we are not planning to materially impact prior designers work and have great respect for the tools they had at the time. Where we think some great enhancements can be made we have included modified versions of scenarios such as the Prucha series in France '40, but that doesn't mean that we dump the original scenarios.

When in doubt and discussing what rules to use, revert to the recommended defaults. The scenarios were tested with those rules. If it is a mod, please peruse the mod designers recommended rules and use those. That should resolve most discussions when deciding on rules. The sticky thread here is also a great way to understand what each optional rule does if you want to 'rule lawyer' an alternative set.

Thanks,

David

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Green - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 11:51 AM)Strela Wrote:
We have included mods and other scenario as a service to the community. We have also ensured that where the mod designer has a different series of recommended rules, that there is a document laying that out and explaining the rationale. If this becomes too hard, we will start to remove mods as we don't need the angst being voiced in this thread.

David, if I thought you were interested in dialogue on this subject I would respond to the points you make in your post.

All I would say is that the use of a threat (i.e. not to include mods) as a way of trying to silence feedback, is disappointing. People are simply voicing their opinions and hoping to improve the game. Attempting to silence disagreement by such means is never a productive approach. And how can you claim that you encourage feedback if at the same time you say that you 'don't need the angst' when people provide it?

It is official - You are off my Christmas card list.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Strela - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 01:36 PM)Green Wrote:
(12-22-2020, 11:51 AM)Strela Wrote:
We have included mods and other scenario as a service to the community. We have also ensured that where the mod designer has a different series of recommended rules, that there is a document laying that out and explaining the rationale. If this becomes too hard, we will start to remove mods as we don't need the angst being voiced in this thread.

David, if I thought you were interested in dialogue on this subject I would respond to the points you make in your post.

All I would say is that the use of a threat (i.e. not to include mods) as a way of trying to silence feedback, is disappointing. People are simply voicing their opinions and hoping to improve the game. Attempting to silence disagreement by such means is never a productive approach. And how can you claim that you encourage feedback if at the same time you say that you 'don't need the angst' when people provide it?

It is official - You are off my Christmas card list.

Hi there,

That was not intended as a threat but a reduction in our support calls.

We combined all the mods that we thought were of sufficient quality and included them in the Gold updates and also included explanatory notes. Based on some of the commentary here it has continued to fuel uncertainties.

I am the last person to silence commentary - otherwise why would I lay out the rationale for the current optional rules? If it adds no value then I will happily allow you to all determine what your own realities are, but I thought giving you my reality, valid or otherwise would be useful.

If you view that I am now threatening and silencing the community I will take that aboard and couch my commentary more sensitively while mourning the loss of yet another Christmas card.

David

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Green - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 01:50 PM)Strela Wrote: Hi there,

That was not intended as a threat but a reduction in our support calls.

We combined all the mods that we thought were of sufficient quality and included them in the Gold updates and also included explanatory notes. Based on some of the commentary here it has continued to fuel uncertainties.

I am the last person to silence commentary - otherwise why would I lay out the rationale for the current optional rules? If it adds no value then I will happily allow you to all determine what your own realities are, but I thought giving you my reality, valid or otherwise would be useful.

If you view that I am now threatening and silencing the community I will take that aboard and couch my commentary more sensitively while mourning the loss of yet another Christmas card.

David

I think some of the support calls may result from players not being aware of the explanatory notes or where they are located. Some reference in the User Manual about the mods would be helpful to those new to the game. This could also explain the history behind the Alt scenarios as new players are sometimes confused as what the Alt scenarios actually represent.

And of course no one is questioning the value of your reality. Ultimately it is the reality that prevails in terms of the game so it is important to all of us. But even re-reading your post and taking into account my over-sensitive nature I get no sense that you were interested in considering any alternative realities. In my view, your post did a very good impersonation of one trying to close down a discussion, if that was not your intention.

But I happily to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just not a card. Sorry.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - KAreil - 12-22-2020

I fully understand Davids situation and I'm fine with it.

Checking for documents belonging to the scenarios is not that much hassle.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Lethal - 12-22-2020

Thanks for an interesting read on what can be a vexatious topic!

When it comes to optional rules I always check @Mr Grumpy's and Dog Soldier's excellent contributions on the subject.

In the 2020 PzC manual there are 39 instances of "optional". But there is not a dedicated section that gives a summary of the options in the style of Mr G et al article. There maybe reasons for this as @Strela pointed out - history, nuance of the particular title, etc so there is not a one "optional rules" fits all PzC titles because of this.

However, it might be useful at some stage to have a dedicated section for this topic in the manual.

RE: Have default optional rules changed? - Strela - 12-22-2020

(12-22-2020, 05:49 PM)Lethal Wrote: However, it might be useful at some stage to have a dedicated section for this topic in the manual.

It's there, Page 26,27 & 28 of the PZC manual.

The logic between the two manuals (not my logic to be clear), is that the menus and features of each choice is covered in the PZC manual and the User manual covers the various game rules.

It always pays off to read both of these manuals as various gems are scattered across both. The PZC manual was updated at the same time as the User manual...

David