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France '40 Gold Team Game - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: France '40 Gold Team Game (/showthread.php?tid=72191) |
RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - Der Landser - 12-26-2018 I have no issue sitting this one out if the scenario plays best with a 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 format. I agree with waiting for the designer notes from Mike Prucha before deciding on the play format. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - larsonney - 12-26-2018 Agreed, We should wait for the notes and exclude no one RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - Liebchen - 12-27-2018 (12-26-2018, 04:59 AM)larsonney Wrote: Agreed, We should wait for the notes and exclude no one I am in no rush. This is a huge campaign, and it's OK if I don't have to do a turn every damned week.  That's what the smaller scenarios are for. 
RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - Mike Prucha - 12-28-2018 Hello all. The complete design notes are not yet available and will be posted at a later date on the WDS blog. Here are some excerpts concerning objective hexes, the Dunkerque evacuations, national surrender, and some suggestions for PBEM or team play. Objective Hexes and Victory Conditions In all six variants of the campaign objective hexes and victory conditions are balanced in such a way that German player can achieve a minor victory through the conquest of Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This is to force the Allied player to intervene in the Low Countries – if he camps the French and British armies in France then he has all but ceded a minor victory to the German player. To win a major victory, the German player must make decisive gains in France. In version A1 and A2 (the two “short” versions) and B1 and B2 this means recreating the historic German sickle cut maneuver by breaching the Meuse River defenses, sweeping through northeastern France to the sea and capturing the Channel ports. Versions B3 and B4 provide additional objective hexes which provide the German player with multiple “paths” to a major victory: 1. Capture the Channel ports (Boulogne, Calais, Dunkerque) 2. Outflank the Maginot Line (Verdun, Metz, Nancy) 3. Capture Paris When playing with version B3 or B4, the German player would be wise to select one of those options and pursue it alone. The German army realistically does not have the resources to accomplish all three of these goals simultaneously and frittering away forces in pursuit of Dunkerque, Paris, and Nancy is likely to end in defeat for the German player. The objective hexes are balanced in such a way that the German player is unlikely to achieve a major victory without pursuing one of these “paths” to its conclusion – almost capturing the channel ports and almost taking Paris probably won’t be enough. Though the historic operation was of course aimed at the Channel ports, the additional objective hexes in versions B3 and B4 impose upon the Allied player a very realistic sense of uncertainty. He will have to work to discern the German player’s intent and defend against a range of possibilities. Dunkerque Evacuations Allied exit hexes have been provided at the Dunkerque harbor and nearby beaches in the four long versions of the campaign (B1-B4). The Allied player may achieve objective points by removing units from the map out of the hexes. Given the quantity of objective points the Allied player would necessarily cede to the Germans in the Low Countries and northern France, simply evacuating the BEF and 1re armée would not result in an Allied major victory. The point of the exit hexes is not to provide the Allies with a means to win but rather to negate some German gains. An Allied player may be successful in depriving the German player of a major victory by evacuating. It strongly suggested that in PBEM play the Allied agree to abide by the following rules regarding the evacuation hexes: 1. Evacuations may only commence if a line of supply cannot be traced from Dunkerque to Paris OR the Germans control or are within 5 km of the objective hexes in Valenciennes, Arras, and Boulogne-sur-Mer. 2. British units may not evacuate prior to May 26th. 3. French units may not evacuate prior to May 31st. 4. Belgian units may not evacuate. (Exception: Belgian units separated from the Belgian Army in the vicinity of Dunkerque may evacuate with the British or French if there seems to be little or no possibility of them rejoining the Belgian Army in Belgium. They may not evacuate until the first British units have left) National Surrender A new feature to Panzer Campaigns is National Surrender. Some objective hexes are designated “surrender hexes” for a given nation. If a nation loses all its surrender hexes to the enemy, all its units are removed from the map. In the campaign games surrender hexes have been included for the Netherlands and Belgium and there is a possibility that these armies may surrender. Not all objective hexes are surrender hexes and therefore the Allied player does not need to defend every objective hex in the Netherlands or Belgium to keep those armies in the game nor does the German player need to capture every objective hex in the Netherlands or Belgium to effect the surrender of those nations. With Fog of War turned on, surrender hexes are displayed as normal objective hexes and neither the German or Allied player will know exactly which objectives to capture to cause the Belgians or Dutch to surrender. The Dutch Zeeland Command is exempt from national surrender and will remain on the map even if the rest of the Dutch army is removed. Suggested Rules and “Opening Moves” for PBEM Play A central factor in the Allied defeat in 1940 were the decisions taken by and lack of coordination between the various Allied commands. To recreate the predicament the Allied armies faced, players in a PBEM game may consider abiding by the following rules and restrictions: 1. All units of the French 7e armée, 1re armée, IIe CA, and XIe CA released prior to May 15th (except any fortress troops) and at least six divisions of the BEF must enter the Low Countries as soon as they are released for the purpose of defending Belgian objective hexes and establishing a link between the Belgian and Dutch armies. These elements may not retreat from the Low Countries prior to May 16th. 2. Upon release, the 1re DCR is to move to Charleroi, 1re DINA to Maubeuge, and the 43e DI to Belgium behind the 1re armée. 3. The Dutch 5th & 6th Divisions and Light Division must be sent north of the Linge River immediately after they are released. (Exception: The 2nd Motorcycle Hussar Regiment may remain behind as a reserve for Peel Divisie.) 4. The Belgian Ardennes Chasseurs, cavalry, and all other elements deployed in the Ardennes must retreat north and west of the Meuse River as soon as they are released (individual companies may stand and fight if they are in immediate contact with German units or must do so to facilitate the withdrawal of other units from the Ardennes). 5. Belgian units may not enter the Netherlands. (Exception: Belgian units may enter Zeeuws-Vlaanderen (the region west of Antwerp and south of the Scheldt) if the Dutch field army has surrendered). 6. Belgian units may not enter France for the expressed purpose of defending French objective hexes or conducting offensive operations. Belgian units may retreat through France and may fight on French soil if necessary, but an effort must made to return these to Belgium as soon as is practicable. 7. Polish Divisions must be held in reserve unless German units are spotted as far south as the Verdun fortresses. (Note: Independent Polish AT companies may be deployed freely). Opponents are encouraged to discuss whether these conditions should be imposed upon the Allied player and are free to adopt or disregard any or all of them. Suggestions for Team Play The size of campaign game lends itself well to team play. There are several ways in which commands could be divvied up between players. In a four-player game, it could perhaps make the most sense divide the commands geographically: Player 1: German Heeresgruppe B Player 2: German Heeresgruppe A and Heeresgruppe C Player 3: French GA 1, 7e armée, Belgian and Dutch armies Player 4: French GA 2 & GA 3. The drawback to this arrangement is that “Player 4” may not have much to do early in the game because GA 3 arrives as reinforcements and most of GA 2 starts fixed on the Maginot Line. To give this player something more to do, he may be assigned to command the French 2nd or 2nd and 9th armies as these are geographically separated from the rest of GA 1 by the Meuse and Sambre rivers (and 2e armée was later assigned to GA 2). In a game with more than four players, a compelling way to assign Allied commands may be by nation. Liaison between the various armies was poor and during the course of the campaign disagreement arose regarding the employment of the British and Belgian armies. Assigning a different commander to the armies of France, Britain, Belgium, and the Netherlands may create some realistic tension or disagreement between the Allies. To further this, players adopt some “national objectives” for the different nations: French and German victory conditions are as defined in the victory dialogue. British victory conditions are as defined in the victory dialogue, but one level is subtracted for every three British divisions destroyed (for instance, an Allied minor victory in which three BEF divisions are destroyed is only a draw for British player. An Allied major victory in which the entirety of the BEF is destroyed is a major defeat for the British player). A division is considered "destroyed" if it has lost a sufficient portion of its strength that is of no practical offensive or defensive value (this is intentionally vague and is somewhat depending upon players' judgement and common sense.) Divisions evacuated through the Dunkerque exit hexes are not considered destroyed. Dutch victory conditions: Dutch Major Victory: Allies control 14,000 objective points in the Netherlands Dutch Minor Victory: Allies control 10,000 objective points in the Netherlands Dutch Minor Defeat: Allies control less than 8,000 objective points in the Netherlands Dutch Major Defeat: The Dutch Army surrenders For every three Dutch divisions destroyed, reduce the Dutch victory level by one. (Territorial commands do not count as divisions, only the 1-8th Divisions, Light Division, and Peel Division) Belgian victory: Belgian Major Victory: Allies control 16,000 objective points in Belgium Belgian Minor Victory: Allies control 10,000 objective points in Belgium Belgian Minor Defeat: Allies control less than 5,000 objective points in Belgium Belgian Major Defeat: The Belgian army surrenders. For every three Belgian divisions destroyed, reduce the Belgian victory level by one. The Belgian and Dutch players are therefore concerned principally with the defense of their own countries and the preservation of at least a portion of their own armies. The British player’s objectives broadly align with those of the French but the British player will not pursue them to the point that his own army is destroyed. If commands are assigned by nation, Allied players will have to make arrangements concerning who controls divisions assigned to the command of a foreign army. For instance, the 51st Highland Division is initially assigned to the French Colonial Corps – should it be under French or British command? Should the British player have the right to remove it from French command if he sees fit? The drawback to assigning commands by nation is that there would necessarily need to be quite a few players (which potentially means slower turn speed) and whichever player takes the Dutch may be in for a much shorter game – some provision may need to be made to include him on some other command should the Dutch army be defeated swiftly. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - ComradeP - 12-28-2018 That sounds reasonable. The player controlling the Dutch Army could take control of the French Seventh Army, as parts of it moved into the Netherlands and it would add to the "intended" command confusion of French units near the Dunkerque coastline are not controlled by the player controlling the BEF or the Belgian Army. As a Dutchman, one of the mysteries of the battle is why the Dutch command sent no less than 5 divisions of the field army, both corps behind the Grebbe and Peel positions and the Lichte Divisie to mostly walk around the countryside for a few days, having only a limited impact on the Fallschirmjaeger and none on the troops coming in from the East. Many infantrymen didn't see a single German soldier before the surrender, the men in North and South Holland thinking they were actually winning the war as they penned in and encircled the Fallschirmjaeger that didn't land south of Rotterdam. The deployment of the army was a compromise between defending forward and defending Fortress Holland. The Fallschirmjaeger and air landing assault was poorly planned and poorly executed, it was a disaster worse than Crete in some ways as on Crete the Fallschirmjaeger and air-landed Gebirgsjaeger managed to save themselves. The Dutch response was fatal to their own defensive effort, however. For reasons that make very little sense to me, and probably never will make sense, the high command decided to switch variants after the German invasion, thus making both the Grebbe line ánd the Peel-Raam position untenable. All those trenches that you can see next to the Peel-Raam position were meant for III Army Corps in the forward deployment variant. The Dutch army still used modified WWI trench tactics, not the zone defence used by more modern forces. This meant that manpower per meter was decent, but that there were no reserves (Dutch divisions were already small and this exacerbated the problem) and the echeloned trench positions were not mutually supporting. The accounts of men holding out in bunkers (which were thought of as being able to stop the invasion, just like the misplaced belief in the Maginot Line and Belgian forts) until everyone was dead or wounded because "the rest of our men will be here soon" are truly saddening. As the Germans were breaking through the Grebbe Line, reserves had to be brought in from elsewhere to counter-attack as the substantial forces manning the rest of the line doctrinally couldn't leave their positions. The Grebbe scenario models this well. For the French players, perhaps the player controlling Second Group of Armies could control the reinforcements arriving later, to complicate counter-attacks against the German spearhead as attacks from forces outside the pocket inwards and forces inside the pocket outwards were poorly coordinated. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - 2-81 Armor - 12-28-2018 I think first thing to do is determine who is still "in" and fully committed to what will be very long PBEM. Second, determine who will be on what side (somebody has to play the Allies! - just kidding). Third, which scenario and which options for PBEM? Speaking only for myself I'm "in" and committed to playing the Allies. So far as PBEM rules and restrictions go as outlined by Mike, I am all for adopting numbers 4, 5, and 6. I'm against 1, 2, 3, and 7, however, because I feel they put the Allies in too much of a straitjacket, forcing them to almost repeat the historical mistakes. This makes things too predictable for the Germans. Both Teams should be masters of their own destiny. As far as scenarios go, I favor B4 first (wired bridges/long), and B3 (wired bridges/shorter) second. They both have multiple German objective paths, which will keep the Allies honest, not able to count on the historical approach being taken. Just my initial thoughts after reading the notes. Many thanks to Mike Prucha for making his preliminary notes available for us to read! EDIT: I'm wrong about B4 and B3! What I should have said was a "long" OR "short" Campaign that features wired bridges and multiple German objectives. Sorry about any confusion! RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - Der Landser - 12-28-2018 Thank You Mike Prucha for your thorough and detailed response , the design notes and your insight. Looking forward to seeing the complete Designers Notes in the future. 2-81 Armor, I just sent you an e-mail with some questions and concerns regarding the team game. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - ComradeP - 12-28-2018 I'm in, as the Allies and prefer B3 long/wired bridges. As to the optional rules, that might take some time to sort out. For starters, I would encourage a debate about the Alternative Assault Resolution rule which is on by default as it makes bunkers very, very difficult to take for infantry units and early war tanks and AT guns don't have HA values high enough to make a lasting impression. I'd prefer to play without it. Playing with Programmed Weather as suggested by the scenario description is fine by me. I like the Quality Fatigue Modifier rule, and would suggest it's selected. Counter-battery fire tends to lead to high artillery losses, and it's off by default. My preference goes to play without it, particularly with such a huge Luftwaffe to hit ? artillery counters and 3% interdiction already making moving in T-mode costly over longer distances. I don't have a particular preference for Recon Spotting. Delayed disruption reporting is probably the other big point of debate. I have no strong opinion on the issue. As to the suggest rules by Mike Prucha: I'm fine with all except 2, as where the initial reserves not part of the Allied defensive plan go should be up to the players. I would suggest interpreting 7 as meaning "as far south as Verdun on the Y-axis", so a line roughly from Creil through Reims to Verdun. In other words: if the Germans go for a variant where they invade northern France, the Polish divisions can be used. As there are no national borders on the map, I'd suggest not using the "Belgian units can't move through Zeeuws-Vlaanderen until after the Dutch surrender" part of rule 5 as for someone unfamiliar with the national border in the area, it's a hassle to avoid moving units through there. For all "can't move into another country" rules, some sensible leeway of a handful of hexes might be appropriate. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - Mike Prucha - 12-28-2018 National borders are displayed in PzC by clicking "View - Area Boundaries." I strongly agree that any suggested "rules" should be approached with some leeway and common sense regarding the situation. The Zeeuws Vlaanderen provision is there just to indicate that the Belgians do have an area of the Netherlands where it may be in their interest to operate in (and historically did), but should not do so early in the game. I have not found it to be a hassle when area boundaries are turned on. Of course you can explore whatever you want - the German command conducted some map exercises which assumed closer cooperation between Belgium and Netherlands and included Belgian infantry marching into North Brabant with the Allies. Exploring what might happen with closer Belgian/Dutch cooperation and disregarding "Rule" 5 may be an interesting possibility, just not one which is grounded in the actual events. I might suggest that you consider playing without the "Limited Air Recon" rule - it is impossible to recreate the events at Sedan (or wherever you select for your Schwerpunkt) and the Albert Canal if you are restricted to bombing only what you can spot on the ground. RE: France '40 Gold Team Game - ComradeP - 12-29-2018 Ah, I've never used the area boundaries feature before. Good to know that the national borders are visible through that feature. The main problem with not limiting recon, or rather: not limiting artillery/air strikes on targets not identified by ground units (or by the map), is that it allows the player to cherry pick high value targets such as artillery units and bomb them over and over and over. Even with 2 air strikes per turn with to the air strike limit, it's going to hurt. Considering the number of hexes the Allies need to move to get into position on defensive lines in Belgium, I'm wondering how costly interdiction will be, as even with 10% effect it might very well hurt. For example: the mobile elements of 7th Army would, on average, be interdicted about 6-7 times moving in T-mode from their assembly area to Antwerp and the Dutch border. Interdiction doesn't take AA fire or visibility air limitations into account aside from the percentage being halved during dawn/dusk turns and no interdiction occurring at night. |
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