fire value for mortars - Printable Version

fire value for mortars - Printable Version

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RE: fire value for mortars - Strela - 11-20-2019

Hi everyone,

We have spent the time to review the game code to see what was happening regarding the stack modifiers.

As highlighted in this thread there was a difference between direct and indirect fire. Essentially, Direct Fire was scaling up from 1.0 as per the manual, but Indirect Fire was both scaling up and down, based upon the target size. If a unit was below the 1.0 level then that lower value was applied to the combat.

We believe this came from some early testing done back when Panzer battles was being created, i.e. long before WDS took over the code.

We have changed the code so stack modifiers work as per the manual, i.e. values will at a minimum be 1.0x.

With that in mind we have changed the North Africa build and would like people to have a look at it before we update all the games in the series.

If people would like to download the beta version of the North Africa game exe get it from here; NA 1941 Beta build

Please do back up your current game exe so you can revert please.

Thanks in advance and any commentary in this thread please.

David

RE: fire value for mortars - Green - 12-04-2019

Looks fine to me, but I was not that concerned, since it made sense to me that smaller targets would be harder to hit (i.e. below the 1.0 level). Having said that, the linear scaling was too extreme and mortars did seem weak. So, if it now works as you originally intended then there is no problem, as far as I can see.

The individuals that raised concerns both referred to Normandy, so providing a NA 1941 beta may possibly not have been of use to them?

RE: fire value for mortars - Chris Merchant - 12-06-2019

Another question for Strela: I am guessing the change to the mortar code will be insignificant to affect play balance, given the scenarios were created pre bug fix?

cheers

RE: fire value for mortars - Landser34 - 12-06-2019

I have played a lot of these games and tested a lot of them also if the mortar is smaller the 120mm I don't bother firing them any more because 90 percent no effect and mortars and artillery were main casualty producers in the war it would be different if you at least got some fatigue out of firing them.

RE: fire value for mortars - Strela - 12-06-2019

(12-06-2019, 12:12 PM)Chris Merchant Wrote: Another question for Strela: I am guessing the change to the mortar code will be insignificant to affect play balance, given the scenarios were created pre bug fix?

cheers

Chris,

That's a good question. It's a bigger issue as it wasn't just the mortars, but all artillery that was impacted.

I expect that you will see some impact due to the changes, but obviously this only impacts small units.

My take, it won't have a huge impact on balance but will see smaller units much more vulnerable to artillery. Those smaller units will not hang around for the same amount of time that they did previously.

David

RE: fire value for mortars - Strela - 12-06-2019

(12-06-2019, 01:25 PM)Landser34 Wrote: I have played a lot of these games and tested a lot of them also if the mortar is smaller the 120mm I don't bother firing them any more because 90 percent no effect and mortars and artillery were main casualty producers in the war it would be different if you at least got some fatigue out of firing them.

Dennis,

There are a couple of different issues here. Mortars of lower caliber have lower hard and soft factors so matched with the scaling bug they were as you point out, useless. The second issue was that in the earlier titles we had much smaller base units as we built everything up at a company/battalion level. In Normandy for example, the US 60 mm mortars were in 3 gun sections with 3 sections per battalion. They should have been setup as 9 gun platoons to stop players breaking them down. These and other lessons have been learned over time.

So low attack values combined with too low a level formation makes these units useless unless a player combines them immediately.

As far as results from indirect fire, I want to see how this change goes before looking at the next level of changes. I would love to see indirect fire have 'more impact' so to speak, but I want to be careful we don't break things as well. Players have a lot more flexibility with artillery than their actual counterparts.

Some ideas that I thought was things such as;

An optional one turn plotting delay for artillery, but with a doubled fire effect (essentially barrage fire)
Artillery spotters (dedicated to various batteries) that would give the doubled effect mentioned, but without a plotting delay. Alternatively, a one turn delay for each level above the formation spotting unless the appropriate spotter is present. So a battalion calling in Divisional guns would have a one turn delay, Corps - two turns, Army - three turns etc.
Pre-game plotting within the editor for barrages so they can occur on the first turn.
Mortars having a significantly higher fatigue impact
Changing mortars completely in that they could do two things; fire smoke indirectly or add their hard/soft attack values directly to any direct fire attack or assault on the target hex. They would essentially provide additional strength to all attacks into that hex for the players turn. Think of it as a modifier to all combats a little like using engineers etc
Look at the impact of artillery vs fortifications and decide whether that needs any tweaking - particularly to the chance to disrupt while within the fortification.

That was all in a five minute brain dump, but anything that helps players feel like they have the ability to play a combined arms game is better overall.

David

RE: fire value for mortars - Compass Rose - 12-07-2019

(12-06-2019, 02:35 PM)Strela Wrote: Some ideas that I thought was things such as;

Pre-game plotting within the editor for barrages so they can occur on the first turn.

I would be worried about the abuse this feature could possibly cause in games.

If a repeat player of the same scenario "already knows" the opening locations of enemy forces and sets up barrages in the arrival hexes or in the enemy's unit starting locations, it could easily cause significant and irreversible damage.

If this occurred so early in the game, a player would have little incentive to continue playing the scenario.

RE: fire value for mortars - Chris Merchant - 12-07-2019

as reference to the editor is made for Strela's example, I assume this feature would be for scenario creators rather than an optional rule - meaning that the balance of the scenario would already take into account any opening turn barrages.

RE: fire value for mortars - Strela - 12-07-2019

Yes, this is for scenario designers not in game play.

David

RE: fire value for mortars - Compass Rose - 12-08-2019