#16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Printable Version

#16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Printable Version

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RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Plain Ian - 07-13-2020

5th Panzer moves. 2nd Panzer starts off released so can move. The only problem is that it is backed up on the road east pointing towards Clervaux.

116th Panzer also starts fixed except all of KG Grollmann and part of KG Bayer. (I/60th Pz Rgt which is the half track mounted Battalion) Its seem wasteful to use B rated motorised units against dug in US D rated infantry but that's how the Germans set up.

62nd VGD will deal with the Provisional units of US 424th Rgt.

The 560th VGD is organised in two Groups. One is already ferrying units over the L'Our and the other can either be used to support this or support KG Grollmann.

[Image: 5th%20Pz%20start.png]

Turn 6. The 422nd and 423rd US Regiments of the 106th are now isolated. In fact they were isolated when 12th SS reached Schonberg and Andler. 18th VGD have formed an inner corset and began whittling them down.

KG Bayer has pushed forward and reached the L'Our at Steinebruch. I've peeled off some units of KG Grollmann to help but that isn't necessary. I've managed to get the Panthers up front and will use them to help reduce the defenders over night. (US artillery will be heavy as there is a Corps worth stacked up in the Saint Vith area) I'll just have to trade 1-2 Panthers instead of 50-70 men.

KG Schumann was having a hard time so I thought I'd be cute and peel off a few companies of 2nd Panzer tanks to help them Pillbox busting. Some Panzer Pioneers added in for assaulting as well although they do disrupt as you can see. I suspect Brian might Fix these units as he has commented on this.

2nd Panzer units were sitting idling whilst a bridge was being built in Dasburg just off map to the south. You'll see their progress or lack of it in next thread.

I'm surprised that Brian hasn't pulled back the 426th or the 112th Regiments which form a small bridgehead over the L'our? When I played the US player I started back pedaling on Turn 1. However it does mean giving up Pillboxes and even a few BUNKERS.

[Image: 5th%20Pz%20end.png]

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - CountryBoy - 07-15-2020

Very complicated indeed. A lot of units concentrated in a small space in unfavourable terrain. What's great about the PzC games however is that you can play this scenario and then fire up a desert scenario from say Tobruk '41 and have a completely different experience. Fabulous.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Outlaw Josey Wales - 07-15-2020

(07-15-2020, 02:45 PM)CountryBoy Wrote: Very complicated indeed. A lot of units concentrated in a small space in unfavourable terrain. What's great about the PzC games however is that you can play this scenario and then fire up a desert scenario from say Tobruk '41 and have a completely different experience. Fabulous.

Besides that, you could still have a completely different experience in this one.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Plain Ian - 07-16-2020

(07-15-2020, 10:40 PM)Outlaw Josey Wales Wrote:
(07-15-2020, 02:45 PM)CountryBoy Wrote: Very complicated indeed. A lot of units concentrated in a small space in unfavourable terrain. What's great about the PzC games however is that you can play this scenario and then fire up a desert scenario from say Tobruk '41 and have a completely different experience. Fabulous.

Besides that, you could still have a completely different experience in this one.

Mmh yes it is a bit overwhelming with the number of units involved. A lot of company sized units to move. Some can be recombined and you can operate as battalions but I'll think you'll find that with the alt artillery and indirect fire operating as a battalion sized unit will cause significantly higher losses.

I guess if you like Normandy 44, then you might like this scenario. If you find it too tough then players can stay with the standard scenarios. As you say that's the beauty of the PzC series, there is bound to be a game or scenario with the right combination of rules that should suit everyone.

I'll finish posting maps just to let players see what they are facing.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Outlaw Josey Wales - 07-16-2020

I meant different opponents could try different plans.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - ComradeP - 07-16-2020

I'm not a big fan of the alt rules, aside from alt indirect fire as that makes sense.

In Japan '45-'46, it's difficult to deal damage to small Japanese units as the Allies and assaulting is usually not desirable due to high Japanese assault values. On the other hand, battalions seem to take higher losses than they would normally take.

Casualties didn't seem to be scaled with the "normal" non-alt average as a base.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Plain Ian - 07-16-2020

(07-16-2020, 01:07 PM)Outlaw Josey Wales Wrote: I meant different opponents could try different plans.

Absolutely. That's why we play these games.

When I go off to the study to play a bit PzC my wife says I'm off to play "hex and O's" or "join the dots". She doesn't realise that these games are serious miiltary simulations used to study historical outcomes!!!! Wink

In my old AAR of #16-4 I think the German player moved Panzer Lehr all the way down to join 7th Army and caused havoc with the US forces. (4th Inf Div and 9th Armoured). In this scenario it doesn't look so plausible to do. Looking at the number of units to move and the space they will require its not going to be easy to shoehorn them in! There are an awful lot of rear area units to get out of the way (Flak Rgts, Supply wagons, Bau units etc) to make that nice smooth move.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Plain Ian - 07-16-2020

(07-16-2020, 04:04 PM)ComradeP Wrote: I'm not a big fan of the alt rules, aside from alt indirect fire as that makes sense.

In Japan '45-'46, it's difficult to deal damage to small Japanese units as the Allies and assaulting is usually not desirable due to high Japanese assault values. On the other hand, battalions seem to take higher losses than they would normally take.

Casualties didn't seem to be scaled with the "normal" non-alt average as a base.

Yep casualties do jump and it looks or at least feels that losses are exponential. What I think this forces players to do is fight or maneouvre in company or two company units at most. So a Battalion battle is usually fought with only 1-2 companies up front and the 3rd and support units in the rear. I think this is the tactical feel that Brian likes and why he differentiated the fighting units of Divisions so much. Well thats my understanding.

What I like about alt artillery rules is that you only have to fire once! I get a bit tired having to fire twice just to kill 2 men.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - ComradeP - 07-16-2020

Based on the parameter data dialog you posted earlier, a D quality unit firing at a unit in a Forest+Trench hex would hit for only 10% damage (30 Forest+40 Trench+20 D quality=90% fire reduction). A C quality unit would fire at 30% value, which is not so hot when you have mostly regular infantry units with average soft attack values.

Scenarios with high terrain and fortification fire power reduction values can suffer from more issues with alt fire than scenarios where those values are lower due to the alt fire already decreasing losses for small units.

I agree that firing once with artillery is nice, it also makes sure you can't use artillery to cherry pick as many targets as possible for Disruption rolls.

RE: #16_14s Wacht am Rhein (Herbstnebel) - Plain Ian - 07-17-2020

Here is the start of the game for XLVII Pz Corps.

I can envisage Oberst von Lauchert (2nd Panzer Division commander) standing at the destroyed bridge at Dasburg looking at the road to Clervaux as it snakes it way north west through the wooded terrain. "So all I have to do is build a bridge, clear 4 Obstacles AND a Ditch, capture a Bunker at Marnach then assault over the the La Clerve and capture Clervaux...in the middle of winter!!" "We're gonna need more Engineers........."

Well he does have a bit of a start as KG Cochenhausen (II/304 PGR) does start over the river. Its Isolated and On Foot. Brian has a house rule which says that the unit cannot re-motorise until Clervaux has fallen. So even if I can get the HQ across I'll try not to end a turn with these units stacked with it.

26th VGD to the south has an easier task possibly. They start closer to the La Clerve. (La Clerf) They have more Bunkers to clear though. But I guess the trade off will be go for the crossing or start clearing the Bunkers. (Hosingen is a Bunker I forgot to mark) There are Obstacles but none of them prevent east/west movement so can be ignored. A bridge will have to built at Germund in their rear. Now this is a problem as there are Obstacles and a Ditch to clear in order to free up the road.

5th FJD is well established with parts of two Regiments over the river. Both Isolated waiting on a bridge being built at Roth. They have a longer march to the Clerve and a few Bunkers to capture or by pass. If they are to be used to strike towards Diekirch then they have quite a few Obstacles and a Bunker at Fouren (sorry forgot to mark this one as well) to over come.

[Image: 2nd%20Panzer.png]