umbro Wrote:

MrRoadrunner Wrote:Though, the "flex" crowd seems to think that the units on the map and the map itself can be "something other" than 250 meters and platoons?

I have to admit that I have difficulties accepting this interpretation. Too much depends on the 250m scale and platoon sized units to make them something else. If one does this then movement factors, attack factors and relative unit capabilities are all lost and the game is no longer a "simulation".

umbro

Mr. Guberman Wrote:The GDmd scale ain't six minutes and you know that as well as I do.

Quote:Rather than argue over that...we agree the scale is 250m per hex...scale has nothing to do with time, at that level.

Quote:As has been described, dammit (and you have not responded to), 6 minutes is crap...and you know it, Ed.

Quote:Please quit being the curmudgeon..not because I want to win...but because your positition is hopeless...and just sad..., ...c'mon...

Quote:...lets have a drink around and look at it...shall we not"?

Quote:...(can't find the little smily face)...for real,...this is crap...you farckin' lost it..what is it you are trying to make?...Ed?

Quote:Christ....

Quote:I have put myself on the voluntary list of being excommunicated...

Mr. Guberman Wrote:The GDmd scale ain't six minutes and you know that as well as I do. Rather than argue over that...we agree the scale is 250m per hex...scale has nothing to do with time, at that level. As has been described, dammit (and you have not responded to), 6 minutes is crap...and you know it, Ed.

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I have always accepted the abstract nature of many of the game's features. I accept them as the exception and hope they do not become the rule. ;)

MrRoadrunner Wrote:I'll let the game manual speak for itself. I am not going to allow my self to be drawn into the taunting member's argument where I will be censured by the club leadership for "causing a disruption". My intent is not to disrupt, it is to simply show the facts (those contained in the game manual and not made up by others along the way).

If any game designer, past or present, wants to model a battle that was an operation of many days or multiple hours, I am perfectly fine with it. It is only a game?
Feel free to express yourselves in that way.
Just keep the schoolyard taunting and name calling to yourselves?

MrRoadrunner Wrote:Manual Page 13
Welcome to the Campaign Series!
The Campaign Series is a tactical-level game portraying some of the significant battles from 1936 to 1945 in the European and Pacific Theaters of Operation. Choose to fight as the Axis or Allies in over 300 historical scenarios. The choice is yours. Pit your skills against the computer or a human opponent in any of the many historical scenarios, or try your hand in full-fledged campaigns consisting of linked scenarios, where each battle counts. You can also go head-to-head against fellow gamers at home via the Internet in games with up to 16 players!
Each scenario is played on a unique map with five “view modes.” Most scenario maps are based on historically-accurate 1940-era 1:50,000 scale maps actually used by Axis and Allied commanders during the war. Each “hex” represents 250 meters; with 4 hexes to a kilometer or 6 hexes to a mile. Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time.
Each scenario has a variable number of Game Turns, in which you and your opponent attempt to capture or defend Objectives and smash more enemy troops then you lose. Every conceivable type of battle action is represented in the scenario selection: meeting engagements, armored breakthroughs, trench defenses, exploitation, reconnaissance, battles of attrition, mobile defenses, and much more.

MrRoadrunner Wrote:Here is something from the game folders. If you hit the link to "Help" and then "Game Parameters" you will find:

Parameter Data

Minutes per Turn: 6 Meters per Hex: 250

Maximum Units per Hex: 6 Maximum Strength Points per Hex:24
Maximum Strength Points per Road: 12 (more than this number of SPs in the hex negates any road/railroad/path in the hex)

Minimum Non-Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 13
Minimum Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 6

Mr. Guberman Wrote:Please quit being the curmudgeon..not because I want to win...but because your positition is hopeless...and just sad..., ...c'mon...

Mike Abberton Wrote:I think you can also explain the difference in scenario length versus engagement length in history (or at least part of it) as "skipping over the boring parts" rather than a floating game scale.

Therefore when modeling a 6 hour engagement in something like 15 turns (i.e. 90 minutes of combat time), you're skipping over 4.5 hours of reconsolidating forces after capturing each objective, calling and waiting for more orders, waiting for the ammo trucks, waiting for someone to bring you your pack that you left behind (rather than sprinting into combat with a full pack), catching your breath, etc. You don't need 24 minute turns to do that (6 hours/15 turns).

Does that explanation require some abstraction, too. Sure. But with this method, it keeps the hex scale consistent with travel speeds (even if infantry are all marathoners). I think the big problem with this explanantion for scenario designers who want to design huge scenarios is that this model breaks down when you have multiple independent forces on the map working semi-independently over long periods of time. You end up with groups of units who are accumulating "downtime" at different rates.

Does all that make the 6-minute game scale "wrong". No, it means you're designing out of the game's "sweet spot". Can you do that and "tweak" the game scale to compensate? Of course you can. But just because it is possible to design a 1,000-turn scenario with 4 divisions worth of troops on each side, and a 500x500 hex map, doesn't mean the game was designed to model that.

Based on the manual, I would say that game was designed for 6-minute turns and relatively small (say regimental size plus support)/short (say up to 25-30 turns) scenarios. The fact that scenario designers (who may or may not have had anything to do with coding the basic game engine) chose to deviate from the sweet spot from day 1 doesn't change the basic design concept at all.

Anyway that was my one rambling comment on the whole game scale debate. In the end, I agree with the saner people on the thread who have said "design and/or play what you enjoy, and let the other drown in the details".
Mike

MrRoadrunner Wrote:II agreed with Mike, especially the bolded part.

Maybe you can try your hand at a scenario design using the parameters set in the game manual?
I won't try to force you to do it. Or, try to do what you are doing, in constantly harping on those who think other than you. I accept that you and others want to model scenarios based on an operational concept. If they are good and balanced, I could care less if they have dimensions that are not based on the scale that is CS.

mwest Wrote:"Each "hex" represents 250 meters."

"Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time."

glint Wrote:I don't need to come in here, trying to be a part of the community, only to see others' comments dismissed by quoting 'The Manual' - the manual was written ages ago, everything has a learning curve in life, hopefully, some in here will start 'learning' as well?