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NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 (/showthread.php?tid=48741) |
RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Zemke - 12-13-2008 I downloaded your scenario, very interesting. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 12-13-2008 Zemke Wrote:I downloaded your scenario, very interesting. Thanks. As mentioned it is merely a tentative first version, and it is to be supplanted and expanded into four different variants later as outlined above. You (or anybody else) should feel free to post any constructive criticism you might have. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Hans Boersma - 12-14-2008 JDR Dragoon Wrote:-LandJut has also gotten a single 25 man A quality, Deception capable, Heliborne danish SF unit (Jægerkorpset) in OPCON. This follows the logic behind the OOBs of other nations in the stock DF 85 game, where genuine Special Forces/Commando type units are represented, but LLRP type units are not. About this unit: - was its designation PTRKMP/DRLR? - are you sure this wasn't a LRRP unit? - making this unit heliborne and deceptional seems a bit overdone; if I'm not mistaken it would be the only unit in the game combining these two capabilities Cheers, Hans RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 12-14-2008 Hans Boersma Wrote:About this unit: No. These Wikipedia page has the information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A6gerkorpset http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Reconnaissance_Patrol (Near the bottom of the "LLRP" Wiki page: The Danish Defence Forces had two Longe Range Surveillance Companies (LRSC) known as "Patrol-Companies" - one assigned to the Jyske Division (later Danish Division) and one assigned to the Land Command Zealand (Corps-level) later to the Danish Army Operational Command. The later: Patruljekompagniet was unit an all volunteer unit within the Danish Home Guard, and has now changed name into: Special Support and Reconnaissance Coy (SSR).) PTRKMP/DRLR was the LRRP company under the Jutland Division. It was staffed with conscripts (albeit volunteer conscripts) doing their national service. It was trained by Jægerkorpset. Jægerkorpset was/is a special forces unit directly subordinated to the Hight Command for Defence (Forsvarskommandoen). All professional volunteers serving on contracts. It is a blatant knockoff of the SAS, but still very high quality. Quote:- are you sure this wasn't a LRRP unit? Positive. Quote:- making this unit heliborne and deceptional seems a bit overdone; if I'm not mistaken it would be the only unit in the game combining these two capabilities The british D Sqd./23 SAS in the stock OOB also has this ability (the austrian "Jagdkommando" have helicopters, but no "Deception". I suspect they were meant to have been "Deception" capable, but as noted in another thread there are some strange things lurking in the austrian OOB ;)) But yeah, not really necessary I suppose. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Hans Boersma - 12-14-2008 Thanks again. Would JGK be this unit's military acronym or would it be something different? Do you have information on actual strength in 1985, sub-units? I'd overlooked D/23 SAS, but interestingly it's not used in the grand scenario. What I'm asking myself is how stealthy/deceptional say 1-3 transport helicopters can be. And in general I see a problem with heli-borne infantry in the game having their transport helicopters at hand all the time, even for tactical movement. The longer the scenario is, the more unlikely this becomes. The only other option, as far as I can see, is to drop them by helicopter (helicopter reinforcement) and leave them to their (probably undesirable) fate as foot or motorized infantry — which is even more "unfair". It would certainly be nice to have transport helicopters as a seperate unit type, being able to load airborne infantry... RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 12-15-2008 Hans Boersma Wrote:Thanks again. Would JGK be this unit's military acronym or would it be something different? JGK would be it, yes. Quote:Do you have information on actual strength in 1985, sub-units? No idea. It was all very hush-hush (still is to a large degree. In 2005 they let slip that the current number was 136 persons serving in the unit, but this also includes non-operative older "Jægere" serving as parachute riggers or in staff and training functions. Like all good SF units it is "inbred" as hell :cheeky:). They operate in 4-6 man patrols as the basic unit, with any number of patrols and independent specialists (snipers etc.) forming a "platoon". I picked 25 as a largely arbitrary number based on an educated guess and on the size of other SF subunits in the game (british SAS platoon: 25, US Army SF platoon: 24) Quote:I'd overlooked D/23 SAS, but interestingly it's not used in the grand scenario. Strange. In my DF 85 "West Germany Invaded HTH" scenario (the BIG one) the 23rd SAS shows up (100%) on the 10th of June at 12.00 hours at hex 158,160 (eastern suburbs of Bad Oyenhausen). It is a 100 man unit split into 4x25 subunits. Strangely enough it arrives by Paradrop of all things ;) Quote:What I'm asking myself is how stealthy/deceptional say 1-3 transport helicopters can be. And in general I see a problem with heli-borne infantry in the game having their transport helicopters at hand all the time, even for tactical movement. The longer the scenario is, the more unlikely this becomes. The only other option, as far as I can see, is to drop them by helicopter (helicopter reinforcement) and leave them to their (probably undesirable) fate as foot or motorized infantry — which is even more "unfair". It would certainly be nice to have transport helicopters as a seperate unit type, being able to load airborne infantry... Yeah. But don´t forget that a "Deception" capable leg infantry unit arriving as helicopter reinforcement can immediately go into "Deception" mode. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Hans Boersma - 12-15-2008 JDR Dragoon Wrote:Strange. In my DF 85 "West Germany Invaded HTH" scenario (the BIG one) the 23rd SAS shows up (100%) on the 10th of June at 12.00 hours at hex 158,160 (eastern suburbs of Bad Oyenhausen). It is a 100 man unit split into 4x25 subunits. Strangely enough it arrives by Paradrop of all things ;) I stand corrected, you're quite right. One of 23 SAS subunits remains unused, but the others get deployed. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 12-17-2008 And so, the hopefully final variants of the stock DF 85 scenario "850610_30sc_AFNorthHTH". Changes to the stock scenario: -Gave the polish 6th AB Div. the possibility of another dropzone on the crossings over the Kieler Canal west of Rendsburg. -Added the missing parts of the danish Jutland Division and Landjut Corps as outlined in the thread above. -Removed most of the danish units from the map. They beging to appear as reinforcements (with variable chance) from noon on the 10th and the next 48 hours forward (thus taking from 24-72 hours from a given unit begins mobilization to it appears on the north edge of the map). They then have to spend up to 24 hours more moving to the front (of course depending on how far north WAPA has reached of course). -Moved some of the setup points for some of the german units. Also consolidated those piddly little platoon speedbumps of "Jagdpanzer Rakete" into units that might actually survive first contact. -The german Heimatschutzbrigade 51 starts at full strenght (instead of at 66%), but takes 6 hours longer to release from its "Fixed" status. -The inner areas of the city of Hamburg is greyed out, since it is not the players responsibility as LandJut commander to defend the city. -Moved LandJut HQ to Rendsburg along with the german AA assets attached to LandJut (they were based at the Kaserne there, which also housed the german armys AA school). -66% of WAPA units invading amphibiously starts the game as "Disrupted" and in addition they stand a variable chance of taking losses as well. This represents both attacks by german and danish Fast Attack Craft, aircraft and subs against the invasion fleet and the resistance and delays imposed by german local defence units. -I also lenghtened the scenario by 3 turns (35 in all, or 5 days). The polish and east german plan complexes I have seen banked on WAPA forces being able to reach the danish border in 4 days, but that was with the massive use of nukes to help them along. We shall see if they can do that as well here with slightly less nasty WMDs to chuck around. -WAPA supply counters also begins arriving as reinforcements earlier, and they arrive at hexes closer to the Inner German Border. -No orders for the AI added whatsoever. I only have so much time on hand Wink. This scenario is strictly HTH. There are four scenario variants in the ZIP file: Variant 1: As outlined above. Should be played with "Explicit Supply" and "Artillery setup" as mandatory rules. Variant 2: Makes the NATO side stronger by adding most of the german territorial units. They will release from "Fixed" status once they have finished mobilizing, which should begin happen 24-30 hours into the scenario with variable chance (thus taking from 42-48 hours and upwards from the units started mobilizing untill they finish. Of course the player then has to move them to where they are needed). On the flipside the NATO player is now saddled with defending (or at least screening off) the city of Hamburg. Should be playable without "Explicit Supply" and "Artillery Setup" as mandatory. Otherwise as variant 1. Variant 3: Makes WAPA weaker by taking away 1 polish Mech Div, 1 polish Artillery Brigade, the polish Airborne and Marine units and an East German MotRifle Regiment plus various army level engineer, AT and helicopter units. These units are slated for their more likely wartime task of invading the danish isles offmap to the NE (parts of these isles can be seen in the NE corner of the map). Should be playable without "Explicit Supply" or "Artillery Setup" as mandatory. Otherwise as variant 1. Variant 4: A "prepared" variant where NATO gets at least 72 hours of warning before the attack hits. Most of the NATO units have thus reached their GDPs along the IGB or in the rear areas and are dug in with a few minefields. Should be playable without "Explicit Supply" or "Artillery Setup" as mandatory. Otherwise as variant 1. Comments and constructive criticism is of course welcome :) RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 01-14-2009 With the permission of the moderators I have uploaded "Variant 1" of the above scenarios to the H2H playtest area, with a possible view towards vetting it is a part of the H2H scenario database at this site: https://www.theblitz.club/h2h_productions/scenario_development.php?ladder=3 Playtest of the rest of the variants will follow in due course. Everybody who wants to help with further playtesting are of course welcome to do so (both with the scenario currently posted in the H"H testing section and with the other three). Comments can be posted here or in the relevant parts of the H2H Scenario testing areas. Regards. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 04-12-2009 The first playtest of scenario variant 1 has just been completed. This one ended on an entirely different note, with NATO scoring a Major Victory. 6th Panzergrenadier gradually and succesfully withdrew across the Kieler Canal, blowing all bridges behind them. The Jutland division contained and gradually wore down the WAPA amphibious and airborne units, destroying them in the proces (a few battalions managed to elope and make it to the exit hexes though). The belgian Parachute Regiment (an ACE Mobile Force unit) landed around Kiel and mostly got destroyed here fending off a polish division. The DECEPTION capable units went into deception mode before being overrun, to great effect. With the arrival of the british infantry brigade and the Jutland Battlegroup, LandJut could present a unified front along the Kieler Canal, with units dug in with minefields. By games end 2 WAPA division had crossed the canal and had begun to make inroads against the Jutland Division, but it was too little too late. The WAPA player generally pressed hard against the 6th PzG. during the first 24-36 hours, but then the WAPA advance slowed down somewhat, allowing 6th PzG to gradually disengage and withdraw. By the time 6th PzG withdrew across the canal and through the british and danish units there it was at approx. 50% strenght, but had still given better than it got. This lack of WAPA aggression probably cost the WAPA player the game. The lesson here is: Don´t dawdle. The WAPA player has the equivalent of 8 divisions available all told. Losing 1-2 of them is acceptable providing that it breaks NATO in the proces. Some general observations: -In order to win this one the WAPA player has to either enciricle and wipe out NATO units wholesale or exit a large number of units through the exit-hexes near the danish border (or a combination of these two). The objecive hexes on this map are only worth about 700 points all told. Nice to have, but not enough to get a victory. The WAPA player must press hard in order to win! The NATO players job is of course the opposite: to gradually withdraw up the peninsula and to preserve the integrity and fighting ability of his units, thereby denying the WAPA player his two possible roads to victory. -"Artillery Setup" worked fine as a pro-NATO balancing measure. Thanks to Kuriltai (the previous playtester) for suggesting this. You were right :) -Explicit Supply also worked fine as a pro-NATO balancing measure, but WAPA needs a few more supply trucks in order to even things up. The revisions of the above scenario variants posted here (and in the playtesting forum) will feature this plus better placement of the WAPA supply dumps (enabling advancing WAPA forces to draw supply from the dumps longer). -Addition of DECEPTION capable units to NATO OOB also worked fine (but might mean that WAPA might need a few more turns in order to compensate. More playtesting will of course follow) Here is the revised scenario pack with additional WAPA supply trucks and supply dump placement. All four scenario variants have been revised. Included in the pack is also the revised NATO OOB, .pdt and Unit pictures needed to play the scenarios (as outlined in this thread) plus a README file explaining the changes and the reasons behind them (a condensed version of this thread. |
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