CMx2 tactical notes and observations - Printable Version

CMx2 tactical notes and observations - Printable Version

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RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - PoorOldSpike - 03-07-2015

ELITE/+2 LEADERSHIP DOESN'T MAKE UNITS IMMUNE TO HEAVY FIRE

1- I just ran this test to confim what I said earlier.
Every German squad and HQ unit is
Experience: Elite
Leadership: +2
Fit
Motivation: Normal
All are on Hide and short arcs.
3 squads are right up against the low bocage, but i've held the 3 HQ units ( Bn/Coy/Plat) further back for safety..
[Image: RT-elite-tks1_zpsejpef0le.jpg~original]

[Image: RT-elite-tks1_zpsejpef0le.jpg~original]

2- I place these 3 x T-3485's stationary at the other end of the map. They can't spot the Germans so I order them to pour non-stop area fire into the bocage..
[Image: RT-elit-tks4_zps5ogamcwf.jpg~original]

[Image: RT-elit-tks4_zps5ogamcwf.jpg~original]

3- And bingo, after several turns of sustained pounding, each squad and the HQ's have taken heavy casualties.
Interestingly beat-up squads Leadership rating drops to a minus figure and their Motivation goes to 'Cautious' like this one because they've taken such a hammering, but their 'Elite' status remains unchanged.
Another interesting thing is that about one-third of the Russian shells flew over the bocage and impacted just behind it, as evidenced by the craters, causing HQ casualties back there.
(The T-34's were only Regular/0 Ldrship/Fit/Normal motivation, so no doubt the better accuracy of higher qual units would have hit the bocage more)
[Image: RT-elit-tks5_zpspv63ofcf.jpg~original]

[Image: RT-elit-tks5_zpspv63ofcf.jpg~original]

4- I just thought I'd throw this two screenshots below into the playpen to confirm what we already know, namely that squads right up against low bocage can see through it clear as a bell, as these sweeps of the targetting line indicate..
[Image: RT-elit-tks2_zpsxkcwu5q9.jpg~original]

[Image: RT-elit-tks2_zpsxkcwu5q9.jpg~original]

5- But units further back have difficulty seeing through it especially if they're prone..
[Image: RT-elit-tks3_zpsoammqmij.jpg~original]

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - Toblakai - 03-07-2015

(03-07-2015, 07:55 AM)PoorOldSpike Wrote:
(03-06-2015, 03:48 PM)Toblakai Wrote: ...If you have the time and motivation it would be interesting how elite and high leadership infantry units would fight behind bocages against attacking units with fire support from mortars and tanks.

We can also be sure that Elite/high leadership units won't have any benefit if they're taking a tremendous overwhelming pounding from tanks and artillery and bombing, they'll be hurt just as bad as lower-qual units.

How can we sure about this?

(03-07-2015, 07:55 AM)PoorOldSpike Wrote: Field Marshall von Kluge said the same thing in a letter to Hitler dated July 22nd 1944 as German units took a terrible hammering from the air in Normandy-
"The psychological effect of such a mass of bombs coming down with all the power of elemental nature upon the fighting troops, especially the infantry, is a factor which must be given serious consideration.
It is immaterial whether such a bomb-carpet catches good troops or bad, they are more or less annihilated" (von Kluge quoted in 'The Struggle for Europe' by Chester Wilmot, page 364)

You quote von Kluge, but this is real life and we are talking about a game Helmet Smile

(03-07-2015, 07:55 AM)PoorOldSpike Wrote: As regards CMx2 game mechanics a good thing to remember is that the units usually behave just like real humans, so treat 'em right and they'll love you to bits..:)

Yes, let's give our pixel troops just a little more love! Helmet Smile

[EDIT]
I saw you last test now. Thanks! Low bocages give poor cover; I meant the "real one".

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - PoorOldSpike - 03-08-2015

(03-07-2015, 03:07 PM)Toblakai Wrote: [EDIT] I saw you last test now. Thanks! Low bocages give poor cover; I meant the "real one".

Low bocage is not bad, the enemy can't see your infantry hiding behind it til they get inside about 100 metres..:)
Only CMBN has real Bocage, it's much taller than Low bocage and only 'Rhino' tanks can get through it. Infantry can get through if they can find a small gap.
Tanks, guns and infantry can fire through it if they're up close to it.
It gives the same cover as Low boc, except it's harder to see over because it's so tall.
Here's a comparison shot from CMBN-
[Image: BN-boc-hedge_zpsgfd45gh6.jpg~original]

[Image: BN-boc-hedge_zpsgfd45gh6.jpg~original]

Red Thunder only has Low bocage (below), and in this test everything moved straight through it from left to right (including pushed guns), vehicles have left gaps where they went through-
[Image: RT-thru-low-boc_zpsfwmghkqz.jpg~original]

[Image: RT-thru-low-boc_zpsfwmghkqz.jpg~original]

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - PoorOldSpike - 03-08-2015

(03-07-2015, 03:07 PM)Toblakai Wrote: You quote von Kluge, but this is real life and we are talking about a game

You can ignore real-life quotes if you like mate, but they kinda grab me, here are some more-

Gen.Patton- "Inflict the maximum amount of wound, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

"Artillery is the god of war"
-Stalin

Gen. Rommel- "Concentrate strength at one point,force a breakthrough, roll up the flanks, penetrating like lightning deep into the rear before the enemy has time to react...The day goes to the side that is the first to plaster its opponent with fire."

Hitler- "The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence"

"At 2 a.m. I directed two hard punches at the 'hinges' of the final break-out area. That finished the battle"- Montgomery defeats the Afrika Korps at Alamein

"For a long time I commanded III./Panzergrenadierregiment 2 of the Leibstandarte.
This unit had made quite a name for its night attacks in Russia. In action our armoured personnel carriers were in the habit of going into the attack at full speed and with all guns blazing.
As the Russian houses mostly had thatched roofs, it was inevitable that they would catch fire during the battle"-Jochen Peiper (explaining how his unit gained the nickname "the Blowtorch Battalion")

"I was sort of thinking 'get the ba*tards before they get me'. Anybody who goes into another persons country to kill is a criminal. He [Wittman] might have been a hero to the Germans, but not to me" -Firefly gunner Joe Ekins who knocked out 3 Tigers, one of which may have been Michael Wittmans

"That's what I want! That's what I want to have!"- Hitler at an early tank demonstration in 1933

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - Toblakai - 03-08-2015

(03-08-2015, 01:55 AM)PoorOldSpike Wrote:
(03-07-2015, 03:07 PM)Toblakai Wrote: [EDIT] I saw you last test now. Thanks! Low bocages give poor cover; I meant the "real one".

Low bocage is not bad, the enemy can't see your infantry hiding behind it til they get inside about 100 metres..:)
Only CMBN has real Bocage, it's much taller than Low bocage and only 'Rhino' tanks can get through it. Infantry can get through if they can find a small gap.
Tanks, guns and infantry can fire through it if they're up close to it.
It gives the same cover as Low boc, except it's harder to see over because it's so tall.

Maybe a misunderstanding. I meant cover and you meant concealment. It’s not the same. The high bocages will give your units much more cover from enemy fire.

From the manual: Cover comprises obstacles or terrain that will physically stop enemy fire. Concealment only prevents a unit or soldier from being spotted by the enemy.

Do you have CMBN?

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - PoorOldSpike - 03-08-2015

(03-08-2015, 04:24 AM)Toblakai Wrote: Cover comprises obstacles or terrain that will physically stop enemy fire. Concealment only prevents a unit or soldier from being spotted by the enemy..
..Do you have CMBN?

Yes, bocage and hedges won't stop bullets, so in that respect they're lousy cover, but they're excellent concealment because the enemy can't kill you if he can't see you..:)

I've had CMBN for years, this sensational thread is 9 pages long so check out my CMBN stuff on the earlier pages.
But I like Red Thunder best because I got fed up with all the wimpy Sherman 75mm's in BN.
RT is more brutal because you get some real "big hitters" like the T-3485 and Stalins and can give jerry a good hammering on an equal basis.
Also I like the new gameplay tweaks and features in RT.
It's a real meatgrinder out there-
"The Russian colossus has been underestimated by us. Whenever a dozen divisions are destroyed the Russians replace them with another dozen"- Gen Franz Halder

[Image: RussInfmarchingA_zpsj0rimlvi.jpg~original]

[Image: RussInfmarchingA_zpsj0rimlvi.jpg~original]

RE: CMx2 tactical notes and observations - A Canadian Cat - 03-09-2015

(03-07-2015, 02:36 PM)PoorOldSpike Wrote: 3- And bingo, after several turns of sustained pounding, each squad and the HQ's have taken heavy casualties.
Interestingly beat-up squads Leadership rating drops to a minus figure

Just to add that the reason the leadership number changed is because the leader has become a casualty. A member of the squad takes over the role of leader and that new person's number is now the leadership number for the unit. You will also notice that the name will change too.