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Good morning a few hours too early - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Good morning a few hours too early (/showthread.php?tid=35461) |
Good morning a few hours too early - General Beanie - 06-15-2006 I'm playing one of the December scenarios in S42 (Winter Storm). At approximately 48 degrees north latitude the sun is rising at 4 a.m. on December 12. Someone who knows how might want to correct the sunrise and sunset times in the S42 winter scenarios. RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Glenn Saunders - 06-15-2006 General Beanie Wrote:I'm playing one of the December scenarios in S42 (Winter Storm). At approximately 48 degrees north latitude the sun is rising at 4 a.m. on December 12. Someone who knows how might want to correct the sunrise and sunset times in the S42 winter scenarios. In S42 we are using DAWN and DUSK turns in the main game and the sun rises at 6am not 4am. the 2 hour 4am turn is pre-sunrise. Senting the turn and daylight perfectly is tricky to do when we are dealing with - 2 hour days - 4 hour nights - and Dawn\Dusk to split the difference. For the PzC Series we use a grid that Tiller created which looks at: MONTH and LATITUDE to establish where we draw the line for night and Day. Also please note that in German Accounts of the East Front, often the times being discussed are the TIME in Berlin so the start of a battle might vary from account to account depending if the auther is writting from the German or the Soviet POV. I'll double check Tillers Grid tonight when I get a chance but I don't think this will be something that we will change (unless it doesn't match the grid and was et in error) Glenn RE: Good morning a few hours too early - General Beanie - 06-20-2006 I've learned to appreciate that errors are not always recognized as errors by Glenn. If you ignore a mistake, perhaps it will just fade away quietly. I don't need to consult any table produced by Tiller to figure out when the sun comes up. I also would have thought that a Canadian would realize that there's no light whatsoever at 48 N latitude at either 4 a.m. OR 6 a.m. in December, unless they consider the aurora borealis "dawn". You can type in any date and location on earth and see for yourself: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html For the time calculation keep in mind that the earth rotates 15 degrees of longitude every hour, so if you're in the vicinity of Stalingrad you're about 3 hours east of the prime meridian. The bottom line is that the 4 a.m. turn in ANY December scenarios in ANY part of Russia or Europe should be a night turn, regardless of what Tiller's chart might say. :soap: RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Glenn Saunders - 06-20-2006 General Beanie Wrote:I've learned to appreciate that errors are not always recognized as errors by Glenn. If you ignore a mistake, perhaps it will just fade away quietly. Beanie - that is BS and you know that too! I checked the data sheet which Tiller gave me for the daylight turns by month by Latitude and it is as the game has it. The PDT uses: 4 18 1 if Nov and the Latitude is 50 Degrees. And you don't like that - so change it! The setting would call for a different value in Dec which is Winter Storm, but I can't change the amount of daylight WITHIN one Scn so I went with the Nov Value. When I picked these values, I was looking more at the early phase of the Uranus Campaign. That means 5 days starting and ending in November, so I used Nov Values by design. FWIW, I've learned to appreciate that given a choice of option A and B, if I take Option A, there will be people will think I should have taken option B. If I picked B, then there would be other people will tell you it should be A and B is clear a bug or an error someone isn't prepared to admit. General Beanie Wrote:The bottom line is that the 4 a.m. turn in ANY December scenarios in ANY part of Russia or Europe should be a night turn, regardless of what Tiller's chart might say. :soap: If someone wants the Dec value for for 50 degree Latitude, the value is 6 18 0 - but if you use 6 18 0, it has to remain the same for the whole Campaign - even the short Campaign which takes place completely in Nov. So I'm going to stick by the Night turns for that early critical phase of the Uranus Campaign and keep the later phase in sync with that. The net effect is with my setting, the 4am turn half the daylight vis. With 6 18 0 there is no 4am turn - no dawn and dusk and the Night turns start at 1800 - the 2200, 0200 and broad daylight at 0600. And I just don't think it is PITCH BLACK dark at 1800 in the middle of November - and that was my focus. I have a long track record of correcting errors or mistakes in any game of the Series - if this was not intentional and were done accidently, then I would change it and post that the correction has been submitted for the next update. But I don't plan to change this for the Winter Storm scns only as it will put them out of phase completely with the Winter Storm part of the Campaign. I suppose I could have done that and then cut the Campaign off without having it extend into WInter Storm, but I figured people would want both together. I guess I can't win eh - because I would be wrong whatever way I went - at least I figure. Glenn RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Glenn Saunders - 06-20-2006 General Beanie Wrote:You can type in any date and location on earth and see for yourself: Neat link - thanks! Nov 19 1942 for Stalingrad gives me: Begin civil twilight 06:41 and I have it at 0600 - close enough with 2 hour day turns and 4 hour nights. Best I can do anyway! Glenn RE: Good morning a few hours too early - General Beanie - 06-20-2006 I just ran the scenario again (S42 1212-01) and 1800 is a dusk turn, 2000, 0000 are night turns, 0400 is a dawn turn and 0600 is a day turn. If there is no way to make the 0400 to 0600 game turn a night turn then the system needs to be overhauled. It is pitch black at both 1800 (NOT DUSK) and 0600 (NOT DAWN) in Russia in December. In fact, every place north of the equator receives no direct sunlight greater than 12 hours a day from March 21 (vernal equinox) to Sept 23 (autumnal equinox). When you get to 48 N the change is much greater and the nights are always significantly more than 12 hours from late October to early February. Go to 67 N and there's 24 hours of darkness in December (i.e., Arctic Circle). So ANY scenario in Russia in the months of November, December, January and perhaps February should have night from at least 1800 to 0600, and in reality it could start as early as 1600 and end as late as 0800 [without dawn or dusk, since the sun angle is so low in the sky (<20 degrees even at noon) anyway]. Anyone that lives that far from the equator knows how long the winter nights are, and how long the summer days are. I just wish the game wasn't showing the sky lightening at 0400 in December when it doesn't happen until much, much later. Camp outside your home sometime in December and this realization will quickly hit home. You'll lay there after 12 hours of pitch black just wishing the sun would rise just so you could warm up a little. RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Glenn Saunders - 06-20-2006 General Beanie Wrote:I just ran the scenario again (S42 1212-01) and 1800 is a dusk turn, 2000, 0000 are night turns, 0400 is a dawn turn and 0600 is a day turn. there are three numbers in the PDT START DAY and START NIGHT ...and one or two digit numbers the 0 or 1 where 1 is Dawn Dusk Turns 4 18 1 is what I used in the PDT The other standard setting would be 6 18 0 ....but you can use whatever values you like as long as you end up with something devisabe by 24 Like I said - I picked my setting for Uranus as this was the focus of the Campaign. You can do whatever you like. If you have turns at 1800 and 2200 and troops scheduled to arrive or release at 2000, they will come in at 2200. I know how long the night is and I also know it changes pretty fast around the soltice. I suppose if you want to giet fancy you could even have two PDTs and switch them in a text file mmidway though the game if you liked - but that would be confusing. Anyway - good luck with making things the way you think they should be. Glenn RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Peter Szabo - 06-20-2006 I thought there was some merit in General Beanie's comment, so I followed the links to find out whether there is a better setting. Below is what I found. For Stalingrad, cca 48 degrees North, cca 45 degrees East, Greenwich + 3 hours the calculator gives: 19 November 1942: Begin civil twilight 06:37 Sunrise 07:11 Sunset 16:19 End civil twilight 16:53 12 December 1942: Begin civil twilight 07:04 Sunrise 07:40 Sunset 16:07 End civil twilight 16:43 For November, you have roughly 9 hours of daylight, 14 hours of night and about half hour for each of dawn and dusk twilight. In December there is about 8 hours of day, 15 hours of night and again, half hour of dawn and dusk each. Reasonable enough -- the next step is how you fit 2-hour and 4-hour turns to these data. After some tinkering I believe (corrections and improvements welcome) that the best compromise is to go with 4 x 2-hour day, 3 x 4-hour night and 2 x 2-hour twilight turns -- with the "twilight" turns representing not actual twilight time but a mix of night, day and twilight. This gives dawn turn beginning at 06:00 day turns beginning at 08:00, 10:00, 12:00, 14:00 dusk turn beginning at 16:00 night turns beginning at 18:00, 22:00, 02:00 that is, if you use local time (in PDT terms, if I am correct, this is the 6 16 1 setting). If you choose to go with Berlin time, you have the dawn turn starting at 04:00 and so on. I do not yet have PzC: Stalingrad '42 -- but I hope it is to arrive very soon. Peter RE: Good morning a few hours too early - Glenn Saunders - 06-21-2006 Peter Szabo Wrote:dawn turn beginning at 06:00 For these setting - alter the PDT - Line 3 to be: 6 16 1 The largest effect will be the day is reduced to 9 turns which will make it tougher for the Russians. When we tested the Game, the Russians are pressed to keep up the advance to Kalach in the time they historically took, dropping 4 or 5 turns from the length is going to really put the pressure on the Soviet. But it is doable. 6 16 1 has: 1600 Dusk 1800 Night 2200 Night 0200 Night 0600 Dawn nine turns per day Whereas the Game default is 4 18 1 has 1800 Dusk 2000 Night 0000 Night 0400 Dawn with ten turns per day Glenn |
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