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Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev (/showthread.php?tid=48664) Pages:
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Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - von Nev - 10-28-2008 Hey all, As some of you may know I have been working on some changes to the S42 based on my experience playing the campaign as the Germans as well as playtesting the title before it came out. The next few posts summarize why I believe that changes are necessary and then I list out the changes I have made. I am interested in your feedback. This campaign is not considered final but getting closer. Feel free to download the attached files and take a look around. Thanks, Marty RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - von Nev - 10-28-2008 S42 PzC Campaign Changes – von Nev – version 1 Stalingrad files: • Scenario File: 1119_01a:Uranus_Alt_Nev • OOB File: Stalingrad ’42 Nov_Alt_McNamara_Nev • PDT File: Stalingrad_Winter_Alt_Nev After playing the Stalingrad HTH Alt campaign against a very able opponent to 106 turns it became apparent to both of us, who are very experienced PzC players, that the defensive capabilities of the Germans are nowhere near where it needs to be to bring anything close to a historical outcome namely the chance of the survival of the pocket until Jan 1943. In this campaign within a couple of days of the kickoff of the Russian offensives, I was able to somewhat orderly withdraw the German forces into something close to the historical pocket that initially was on the Don river to the west, near the original battle lines to the north and on the Karpovka and Cherelenaya Rivers to the south. Unfortunately, that was about all the success I had. Once the pocket was formed my opponent concentrated all forces on the pocket and with massive stacks of infantry and tanks and artillery pounded his way forward so by Nov 29, only 10 days after the start of the offensive, he was within 8 km’s of Gumrak airfield and the German reserves were spent and broken. At this pace the pocket was going to be reduced prior to even the kickoff of the German relief offensive which started in mid December! From a campaign standpoint it was going to be over at around 140 turns despite being a 306 turn campaign. What we found were a couple of things that needed to be addressed: • The Russian opponent knows that the German relief force does not start until the middle of December so he just brought everything to bear of the pocket. The relief force was irrelevant. My opponent stated: “I think one difference with history is that I brought everything I had to bear on the pocket, except the 21 army and 1st guard army and cavalry corps which were guarding my right flank and a couple of infantry divisions guarding my left.” • Despite the fact that I created a rather strong and continuous pocket around the historical pocket lines, the Russian offensive never paused and blasted right through it. Historically, after the pocket closed, the Russians stopped for a month to bring up supplies and sent forces to defeat the relief force before turning on the pocket. As the campaign plays, the Russians simply mass everything against the pocket and quickly reduce it. The German player is truly without options as there is nothing that can stop the Russian steamroller and the relief force does not attack until December. My opponent stated: “I think if I were to play the Germans, I'd play them exactly as you did. Might pull back faster, but that is it. I think this scenario needs some more tweaking. Maybe not let the 5th tank army cross the (Don) river? Or have the onboard German reinforcements release on a more random basis to make it more risky for the soviets to commit everything to Stalingrad.” • German AT capabilities are nowhere near where it needs to be to swat away the hordes of Russian tanks. In fact, by 10 days into the campaign German vehicles losses are over 1,050 to around 550 for the Russians. This ratio is nowhere near historical losses and make the Russian tank forces near overwhelming by mid game since typically German tank units are smaller and are therefore destroyed while larger Russian units are damaged, pulled out of the line, and then rested and receive replacements. German armor survivability and effectiveness need to be improved. • German aircraft, especially Stukas, did little damage to the massive stacks of Russian infantry and tanks. In fact, Stuka strikes were almost non-effective even as a tank killer. German aircraft where also rather quiet when historically this also was not the case. German bomber and Stuka strikes where throwing themselves into the fight with numerous sorties a day when the weather permitted it. • German units dug-in in the clear had little chance of staying undisrupted. Even full A morale PzGren battalions where “broken” in a couple of turns. My opponent stated that: “As for the battle of attrition, I just blasted away at a single stack (and there is a lot of soviet artillery) until all the units were disrupted and then assaulted. Once my units got depleted, I pulled them out and shoved refresh ones back in. Towards the end, I was getting a little less discriminating, shoving rested but reduced units back in the line.” • The only effective defensive position that even caused the Russians to slow down were bunkers and pillboxes. Even trenches in villages where blasted out in a turn of two. • The Russian replacement rate is much too high. In this case the Russian replacement was 4% while the Germans was 2%. Because of this disparity Russian units simply pulled out of the lines for a day or two and were near full strength before being thrown back in the lines. This is very ahistorical since the Russian supply system was not known to reinforce units in battle. They simply ground units down to nothing and replaced them with new units. The results of this high replacement rate difference is that it greatly unbalances the opposing forces in a long campaign because the Russians start with 2:1 odds then receive twice the reinforcements. In my campaign, by turn 106 German forces are down 40% from their start to 96,000 while Russian strength was still near the starting strength at 315,000. • Max stacking in hexes at 1,300 is much too high. This allows dense stacks of Russian tanks and infantry to simply blast their way forward. Admittedly I was able to disrupt a couple of full stacks and capture prisoners in assaults but this was rather rare since the Germans had difficulty disrupting full Russian stacks that sometimes numbered 10 units. Additionally, with such high max stacking my opponent simply created a wedge about 12 km’s wide and drove it right through German lines towards Gumrak. • Villages in the game were not the highly effective historical pillboxes and bunkers. Reading any history suggested that both sides turned villages into bristling bunkers and pillboxes overnight and were extremely difficult to take even with significant artillery. • The Russians seemed to have little supply problems when historically this was not the case. After the Russian initial breakthrough and the forming of the pocket it took the Russian over a month to assemble the forces and supplies necessary to ensure the success of Operation Ring that was launched in Jan 1943. • German infantry has surprisingly little ability to inflict “gameplay” changing damage on the Russian infantry hordes. By turn 106 Russian infantry losses are 56,000 while the Germans are 96,000. Historically Russian losses were tremendous! In fact, Russian losses in their initial attack to reduce the pocket in Nov-Dec were so immense that the attack was called off and a more systematic operation was planned for Jan 1943 (Operation Ring). This inability of the German forces to inflict major damage on the massive number of Russian infantry means a Russian opponent has little to fear from dug-in German infantry. This is also not historical because Russian infantry advancing in the snow to face dug in German was a recipe for massive Russian casualties. In this campaign that simply is not happening. • Russian artillery was too effective. The absolutely incredible amounts of Russian artillery made it near impossible to hold any hex. Once the Russian stacked their artillery behind the lines they simply blasted individual hexes to the point of destruction or breaking. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - von Nev - 10-28-2008 As a result of these issues I have adjusted Volcano Man’s _Alt campaign with the following changes: • Increased German air availability to 50% from 20% • Decreased Russian replacement rate to 2% from 4% • Increased German replacement rate to 3% from 2% • Added German bunkers in most villages within the historical pocket including adding bunkers along the Marinovka “nose” as well as along the Rassashka and Cherelenaya rivers. This is to try to give the Germans a defendable line of defense that can survive the Russian artillery. I expect the Germans will defend bitterly this defensive line (as they did historically). Once this line is pierced although the German will have some bunkers in villages but these will not constitute a connected line of defense. • Russian supply is reduced: o (0, 3) 75 instead of 80 o (87, 0) 75 instead of 90 o (249, 136) 85 instead of 95 o (249, 165) 85 instead of 90 • Added German supply points in Stalingrad proper. These are small supply points in the “historical” northern and southern pockets. With these supply points the German defense will not simply collapse to the nearly ineffective isolated status if Pitomik and Gumrak fall. o (201, 143) 10 supply points (southern pocket) o (211, 130) 10 supply points (northern pocket) • Max stacking reduced to 1,000 from 1,300 • Clear terrain combat modifier of 2% instead of 0%. This means that units that are out in the clear are more vulnerable to fire. They should be since historically they were walking across snow covered fields. This impacts both Germans and Russians and even units that are in defensive position dug-in in clear terrain. • In an effort to make defensive positions more impactful I generally increased the defensive bonuses of all defensive positions to near 40% and then used the “other” bonus for bunkers and pillboxes to improve it from there. My thoughts are that a trench, a bunker and a pillbox all start out as a trench with a bunker and a pillbox an improvement on a trench. These changes will give the German infantry survivability while waiting for the relief attack to start. o Bunker defense increased to -40% +20 from -30% +10. o Pillbox defense increased to -40% +30 from -40% +20. o Trench increased to -40% from -25%. o Improved increased to -30% from -20%. • Instead of increasing wholesale the attack values of German panzers I decided to increase panzer survivability through increased replacements and dramatically increase the attack values of German airpower. o Stuka hard attack increased to 50 from 15 (now in testing they consistently destroy 1 or 2 tanks per attack) o Stuka soft attack increased to 30 from 8 o Ju-88 hard attack increased to 10 from 5 o Ju-88 soft attack increased to 40 from 18 o He-111 hard attack increased to 15 from 7 o He-111 soft attack increased to 50 from 28 • In reading Gen Raus’ book “Panzer Operations” it was clear that the German units outside the pocket conducting the relief operations were highly effective in inflicting massive casualties on the Russians. As a result, to improve these units’ ability to constantly be in the attack over a week of hard combat, I added a specific reinforcement rate for the 6th, 11th, 17th, 22nd and 23rd Panzer divisions. o The panzer regiments received 2% replacement (1% for the 11th & 22nd and the 203 Stug Battalion) o Infantry regiments and the panzerjager companies received 1% replacements • Within the pocket to increase the survivability of German panzer units I added a 1% replacement rate to the panzer regiments of those units (14th & 24th PzD and Stug battalions 177, 243, 244, 245). • In reading Gen Raus’ book on the relief attacks he indicated that he had a very effective 42 vehicle Stug unit under the command of Maj Koch at his disposal. While it is unclear exactly which unit this is, in order to improve the punch of the relief force I added this unit at (62, 260). This addition may not be historic but I see it as a small point in the grand scheme of things. • Reduced the Russian artillery setup to 55 instead of 75. This reduces the ease of Russians setting up and moving artillery units. • Reduced the amount of movement points a tracked vehicle has to move in clear from 6 to 5. This helps the Russians but also helps the very mobile German relief attack. • My opponent questioned why very few bridges were destroyed. Therefore: o Small bridge wired increased to 85 from 80 o Big bridge wired increased to 75 from 65 • Increased the command radius of the 6th Panzer Division to 20 from 15 based on its historical effectiveness. In implementing these changes I found in testing that it does not at all prevent the Russian forces from breaking through the Romanian lines in both the north and south in the historic timeline. Therefore, these changes do not prevent the closing of the pocket it simply enhances the German ability to survive until at least the German relief attack starts. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - von Nev - 10-28-2008 To reinforce the point that some tweaking is necessary below are the reported stats for the HTH_Alt campaign. Russian victories 11 out of 16 times with most reported as a Russian Major Victory and reported balance is biased towards the Russians. The SS varient campaign reported Russian victories 8 our of 11 times with reported balance biased towards the Russians. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - Krak - 10-28-2008 I have played the stock CG 6 times. I think with all those pro axis changes you make I would not take on a game a Russian. In my experince simply giving the Germans QFM is ample to re dress any imbalance. In the games I have won as German I conducted an aggressive defence and was successful in ending the game early. I agree that a long game will favour the Russians. But the Russians may not survive to long with all your beefing up of the Germans. As for the SS variant, well I fail to see how any good German player could lose it. Add QFM and I would back the Germans all the time. So much of the big campaigns depend on player skill. Even a small edge in skill over a long game will result in a victory for the better player unless there is a huge imbalance (ala 'Welcome to the Fascists'). Thus getting the balance right is very difficult. I applaude your efforts but I think you go a bit too far. I am playing Rhzev 42 at the moment and dislodging Germans from 40% trenches in 30% terrain (total 70%) is very very tough. So much so that Germans in such positions are virtually immune to any type of Artillery fire. I don't even bother shooting Arty at them anymore, best to just work around the flanks. Just my 2 cents. 
RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - von Nev - 10-28-2008 Thanks for the response Krak. I would like to understand what you did as the Germans. If you went on offense at the start of the campaign I think I will adjust for that too. That doesn't make any historical sense as by the time Nov 19, 1942, rolled around the 6th Army was in no condition to start some coordinated offense. Plus, the surprise of the Russian offense and the general confusion of the German High Command and the meddling of Hitler all prevented some coordinated German offense. What German infantry units went on the offense? The units that I will most likely be "fixing" to prevent a German offense are the 44th, 384th, 76th, 113th, 60th, 71st, 389th and 3rd Infantry Divisions. I expect that they will be released with the 44th and the 384th on Nov 20th and the rest on Nov 21st. By this time the Russian attack will had dismantled the Romanians in the north and be well along in the south. Remember, the goal of my adjusted campaign is to try to get the pocket to form and then for the German to try to hold out and then conduct the relief attack. If the campaign's likely outcome is a German victory early that is a problem as well as if the Russians collapse the pocket early that also is a problem at least the way I see it. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - Krak - 10-28-2008 There must be some old posts with a discussion about the German southern gambit around somewhere, where the problem is discussed in some detail. But in short there is nothing stopping the Germans from massing all their Panzer and Motorised forces to crush the Russian southern flank. Its a very difficult gambit to stop. I agree its totally unrealistic. The Germans simply did not have the fuel to mobilize all these panzer troops at once. But in the game its a very viable tactic and most likely will succeed against an unwary Russian. Even a wary one needs to be very careful in the south. The problem you face as a designer is the limitation of the supply system, in a fuel sense. From memory I think the Germans only had enough fuel to move around one or two mech divisions, not all six. I don't know how you can model that within the game. Maybe all their PzG could be changed to foot sloggers (like some Russians are), except for the odd one here and there. Its a difficult problem. Because really the Germans should be able to decide which formations he will allocate his precious fuel reserves to. Anyone who has played the Operational Combat Series by The Gamers (its a boardgame) will know just what I mean, as in how fuel supplies determine how many panzer div's and PzG div's one can get moving in the Uranus scenarios.
RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - FLG - 10-29-2008 I agree with many of your comments and think the majority of your changes make sense. Only playing will show how balanced things have been made. A few points: Firstly your changes to the supply system seem sensible and your reduction of the Russian replacement values are a good idea. I am not so sure about increasing axis relacements to 3%. I suppose this is a playability issue. Russian artillery is a problem. It was break through level as the start of the campaign but after that it wasn't so powerful, until it was concentrated and stockpiled again. PzC always often has problems representing reasonable artillery usage in campaigns. Maybe your lower supply rate will help limit some of the excesses of Russian artillery. Quote:Villages in the game were not the highly effective historical pillboxes and bunkers. Reading any history suggested that both sides turned villages into bristling bunkers and pillboxes overnight and were extremely difficult to take even with significant artillery. I am not sure how true this is. I suspect it took a while to fortify a village with bunkers. However, you could alter the general defensive values of the villages and town to be the same as a city to simulate a more defensible position Also I think you have possibly over powered the Luftwaffe. During the battle they did not have great availability and while the Stukas tank killing ability is poor in the stock campaign putting it up to 50 seems very high. Quote:By turn 106 Russian infantry losses are 56,000 while the Germans are 96,000. Historically Russian losses were tremendous! Most of the German losses are surely Rumanians. I would expect the loss rate to favour the Germans in the end. I know the Russian losses were extremely high in reality but also PzC generally doesn't try to mimic exact loss figures. If you over power the axis defense too much the Russians may take too many losses, realistic compared to reality but not in terms of playability. Also, IIRC in the designers notes it says the length of the campaign is reduced compared to reality for reasons of playability. Don't forget, once the Bavarian Corporal had prevented the 6th Army from retreating their fate was very much settled. The Russians were much stronger than the 6th Army, plus relief efforts. In a balanced game the Germans should be able to achieve a draw, even if most of them are killed. I do enjoy playing Stalingrad and your mod looks good. When I eventually get a free campaign slot I might give it a try. Thanks for the effort. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - Mr Grumpy - 10-29-2008 Krak Wrote:There must be some old posts with a discussion about the German southern gambit around somewhere, where the problem is discussed in some detail. Krak, Von Nev, i believe this is the thread Krak is refering to, the first 4 pages are about a release issue, then the conversation changes to possible German tactics in pages 5 & 6. Old S42 thread. RE: Adjusted S42 Alt Campaign - v1 - von Nev - Mr Grumpy - 10-29-2008 von Nev Wrote:Hey all,Marty, When you feel this scenario is as "good to go" as you can make it, then we can add it to the OpC Mod forum. ;) |
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