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NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 (/showthread.php?tid=48741) |
NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 11-03-2008 The area covered by NATOs bi-national danish-german Corps LandJut consisted of a 50 km broad corridor between the Elbe river and the Baltic sea. All of it excellent offensive terrain (excepting the major urban area of Hamburg) and with only the Kieler Canal (and the Elbe-Lübeck canal running N-S parallel to the East German border, but good luck trying to hold along that line for very long.....) as a natural obstacles to stop an attacker. To hold this 50 kilometer front LandJut had but two division: The danish "Jutland Division" (Jyske Divisionskommando) and the german 6th Panzergrenadierdivision. In addition to this came various Corps troops and local defence forces. These two divisions, with their 6 brigades between them, represented about half the necessary manpower needed to be sure of holding the peninsula and ensuring that the forward defence could both cover the border and have enough "depth" so that a breakthrough would not lead to a devastating rout. On top of this the forces of LandJut also had to guard against the possibilities of a coastal invasion and a possible use of airlanding troops against the Kieler Canal. Ideally about 4 division equivalents were needed for this task.... The Jutland Division was the danish armed forces prime contribution to the common defence of the inner german border. In 1985 it consisted of three armoured infantry brigades (all equipped alike) plus divisional troops. The manning was a mix of enlisted men on running contracts and conscripts with 9 months of service behind them. The tank strenght of the division consisted of 120 modern Leo 1A3 tanks bought in the mid-late 70´s plus 18 older M41 Walker Bulldogs in the divisional recon battalion (acquired in the early 60s, last major refit in 1970-71). The infantry was mostly equipped with shorter range AT weapons (84mm Carl Gustav RRs and 66mm LAW) and the german G3/MG3 combo for small arms with .50 MGs and 81 and 120mm mortars for heavy weapons. About 2/3rds of the infantry strenght of the division was carried in M113 APCs with the remainder truckborne. The weapons mix of the infantry was the same regardless of whether the unit was motorized or mechanized (motorized units just deployed their .50 MGs and 81mm mortars on tripods instead). LOng range AT weapons was divided among the Battalions, with each having 1-2 firing platoons of 4 launchers each (either mounted on M113s or Jeep/Landrovers) The divisional artillery consisted of 1950s vintage towed pieces (155mm M114, 203mm M115) and unupgraded M109 SPGs (with the "short" M114 barrel). Airdefence consisted of a single battalion comprised of a single 40mm BOFORS semi-radar guided AAG battery and 3 batteries of REDEYE MANPADS (distributed 1 pr. brigade). The division was dependent on mobilization and drawing of equipment (could be accomplished in about than 24 hours) before it could begin to depart its danish garrisons for its wartime position as the northernmost of LandJuts two divisions covering the area just south of Lübeck and north towards the coast. Mobilizing, moving the division to Germany, digging in, laying minefields, clearing fields of fire and coordinating with the german authorities would probabaly realistically have taken about a week or so to accomplish under peacetime conditions. The german 6th Panzergrenadier had 2 Armoured infantry brigades and a single Panzerbrigade. The Tank strenght of the division was composed of Leo 1s. Most of the infantry rode in the excellent Marders with the remainder in M113s. Infantry AT consisted mostly of 6-9 MILAN ATGM pr. company plus Panzerfausts in every squad. Small arms were G3/MG3s. Mortars consisted of 120mms. Most of the infantry could move and fight under the protection of armor. Long range AT consisted of a company of Raketenjagdpanzers pr. Brigade. The divisional artillery was composed of modern upgraded M109 and M110 SPGs, plus Rocket launchers and modern towed FH70 155mm howitzers. The air defence battalion had 36 of the excellent modern Gepards plus an oodle of Stingers. The division was dependent on mobilization (could be accomplished in less than 24 hours) but the units were garrissoned within an hours drive or so of their wartime positions. The fact that the two division between them could only muster about 6 brigades of the 12 or so needed caused quite a bit of tactical and operational headaches in LandJut during the period. Compunding this was the fact, that the Jutland Division would likely be either mobilizing or deploying to Germany when the WAPA attack hit, leaving 6th PzG with the onerous task of covering a 50 kilometer frontage all on their lonesome. The germans tried to alleviate the problem by "Supersizing" 6th PzG: Its divisional Jäger Battalions acquired M113s for transport instead of trucks and an "extra" Heimatschutzbrigade (nr. 51) with 2 battalions of Leo 1s, 2 battalions of infantry (one in M113 1 in trucks) plus a 105mm artillery battalion was attached to the division. The danes also tried to help the problem by raising the so called "Jutland Battle group" (Jyske Kampgruppe). This was a weak infantry brigade consisting of 3 motorized infantry battalions (same equipment mix as the motorized infantry in the Jutland Division), a 105mm artillery battalion (with guns of 1950s vintage). The germans also reinforced LandJut with additional AA assets in order to alleviate the fact, that the Jutland division was woefully deficient in this regard. On top of this the UKMF (a british infantry brigade) was also earmarked for the BALTAP area from the 1970s forward. But this brigade might equvally well go to reinforce "LandZealand" (the danish Corps HQ in charge of the territorial defence of the danish isles west of the Great Belt) as to LandJut. The 2nd MEF (about a division of US Marines plus their attached air support) was also earmarked for AFNORTHs area in general, but that might mean anywhere from Nordkap to the Elbe (and at least one Marine Regiment was especially earmarked for Norway). Another possibility for reinforcements was the ACE Mobile Force (a supersized light infantry brigade) but this unit could potentially have been used in any other NATO member country instead. By the late 1980s SACEUR also had the US 9th infantry division as theater reserve, which might get committed to the LandJut area. The problem with these out of theater reinforcements were time. It would likely take up to a week to mobilise, embark and transport the UKMF from GB to the continent. The ACE Mobile Force would also take time to assemble its constituent units (but could potentially arrive very quickly by air transport once asembled). How soon the USMC might show up of course depends on where in the world they might be floating around at the moment mobilization starts and the 9th US Infantry would likely take at least a month to mobilise, embark and transport to Europe (probably longer) from its bases in Washington on the US West Coast. Against this would be arrayed the forces of the WAPA "Coastal Front" (nominally under polish control), most likely consisting of the East German 5th army (3-4 divisions) in the 1st tactical echelon followed followed up by a polish army in the 2nd echelon. The NVA army would achieve the initial breakthrough towards the Kieler Canal and when the polish army arrived it would continue towards the west following the frisian coast. The polish army (most likely the mobilized 4th Army consisting of 4 Mot.Rifle divisions plus army level troops) would then cross the Kieler Canal and complete the conquest of Jutland and the destruction of NATO forces there. Meanwhile polish and east german amphibious and airborne units (a polish airborne and ambhious division plus an east german ambhibious regiment followed up by a polish Motorized rifle division with attached army level artillery and engineers etc.) would attack and conquer LandZealand. The use of tactical nuclear weapons on a massive scale features in all surviving WAPA plans (about a 100 weapons in the 1-50 kt. range used against LandJut in the first 2 days of the war alone!). Strangely enough, the soviet Marine Brigade only shows up in the WAPA plans during the 1960s (where it is among the forces earmarked for the invasion of LandZealand and the danish isles). During later periods this unit doesn´t feature in any extant WP plans against the BALTAP area, but since we only know about the WAPA plans from the East German and polish archives it is possible, that the soviet high command might still have planned to use this unit against BALTAP (without informing their WP allies or giving them authorization to use the unit when drafting plans). An alternative use might have been as theater reserve or as a spearhead in an amphibious attack against either Sweden or Finland). But how is this represented in the MC series? Well, in the bog standard NGP 85, neither the danish army nor the NVA 5th army shows up (The East German divisions are attached to various soviet armies instead and the danes seems to have chosen to stay at home watching TV and drinking beer instead). The 6th Panzergrenadier (minus its extra attachmants) is thus left to hold the entire Landjut frontage against the northernmost prong of the 2nd GTA plus an attached soviet Marine brigade landing amphibiously behind them (and usually gets shafted in the process...). The AFNORTH expansion makes up for this almost fully by including the german Territorial troops, 2 brigades of the Jutland division, the UKMF, THe ACE Mobile Force and even a USMC Expeditionary Brigade (about 12 Brigade equivalents all told on the NATO side in the biggest scenario. Or 4 divisions). On the WAPA side the missing NVA 5th army shows up (with 3 divisions). On top of this the strategy options now makes it possible for the WAPA player to redeploy the polish amphibious and airborne units from their planned invasion use against LandZealand and the danish isles and use them against Landjut (and what WAPA player wouldn´t? Afaik it is essentially a "Free lunch" since the player isn´t responssible for the invasion of the danish isles and doesn´t stand to gain or lose any VPs on the basis of who possesses Denmark east of the Great Belt). It is thus a no-brainer to use the forces originally earmarked for this operation against the enemy actually on the map. In one scenario variant the WAPA player even gets an entire soviet airborne division to play with! And he still gets to exercise the option of employing the soviet Marine Brigade. In the biggest scenario the WAPA side gets about 6 division equivalents (the polish airborne division is really nothing more than a big Regiment). In the AFNORTH expansion for NGP the sides are thus balanced: WAPA starts out strong (East German 5th army plus attached airborne and amphibous forces against the german 6th PzG plus Territorial forces (about a division equivalent), but arriving NATO reinforcements will even up the odds after about 24 hours (in the smaller of the AFNORTH scenarios WAPA doesn´t get the soviet airborne division, but in turn NATO doesn´t get the UKMF, the USMC and the ACE obile Force, so the overall correlation of forces stays constant) In Danube Front 85 the WAPA player gets all of the above options (minus the soviet airborne division) plus an entire polish army to boot (1st Army with 5 divisions, whose forward divisions were forward deployed to the GDR under the cover of a major exercise). The WAPA player can thus attack at dawn on the 10th of June 1985 with 4 divisions (only 2 East German since the 1st MSD is occupied in Berlin and 2 Polish) plus the polish airborne and amphibious forces topped off with the soviet Marine Brigade (about 2 division equivalents more) with 3 additional polish divisions coming up in 2nd tactical echelon. On top of this, the WAPA seaborne invasions (including the insertion of the NVAs 29th Amphibious Motor Rifle regiment across the bay of Lübeck on the first turn) comes off totally unmolested (not the airborne drop), even though both the german Naval air arm and Navy were fully alert to the possibility of such actions on behalf of WAPA, and the units arrive on their landing beaches in pristine condition and ready for action. Against them stands the "supersized" 6th PzG (that gets its additonal Territorial brigade and Jägers in M113s in Danube Front), but the rest of the Landjut Territorial forces (1 more Heimatscutz Brigade and 2 Heimatschutz Infantry Regiments) is absent, even though the task of these units expressly were to guard against WAPA air and amphibious attacks like those represented in Danube Front 85. About noon on the 10th the Danish Jutland division starts to move south, but only its divisional troops plus a single Brigade is present in the game (plus a battalion sized Jutland Battlegroup consisting mostly of Leopard Tanks). A day later an option of inserting the Belgian Commando Brigade (a light infantry brigade) appears, but this is only one option among many if playing the "Big" campaign. About 3 days into the campaign the UKMF will pop up as well if that option is exercised. Even with both belgians and UKMF in the mix NATO can at best muster a little over 2 divisions (about 7 brigade equivalents) on this front, and then only after 3 days, while WAPA can muster 6 division equivalents from the get-go and up to 10 after a day or two (only 9 if the reduction of Berlin takes too long or the 1st MSD is sent elsewhere). I must admit that every time I have played the AFNORTH scenario in Danube Front 85 as NATO against the AI I have been shafted and I dread to think about how I would fare against a human opponent. Thus is made even worse in the big "Battle for Germany" campaign where the failure of Landjut will mean that WAPA forces will be freed up to use against the rest of NATO once the BALTAP area falls. I would thus like to propose some measures that could potentially serve to both even up the odds and give a more accurate portrayal of the involved armed forces in the Landjut area (if nothing else I can at least offer up my efforts as a private 3rd party OOB "Mod" for the game). But it is getting late so I will continue tomorrow. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Aaron - 11-03-2008 I have those units u listed in a mod called The Bolt out of the Blue, its on page 4 now heres the link. https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=48045 Aaron RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Narwan - 11-04-2008 Hi there, I only got the game this weekend and was checking the forum for it on the Blitz (I'm a long time SP player). This area happens to be a bit of a specialyt of me (been researching it for SP scenario's campaigns). The NATO defense does in fact meet the 12 brigade (equivalent) requirement. Responsible for the defense of this area was the Heimatschutzen. People tend to think of these as old men only fit for garrison duty but the truth is far from it. The best comparison is the US national guard. These vary from (near)active line formations almost as good as regulars to the aforementioned 'old men'. The german Heimatschutzen (HS) was more or less the same size as the Bundeswehr. Heimatschutzen was to conduct the bulk of defensive operations (throughout germany, not just the north) and rear area offensvie actions (vs para's, airassault, breakthrough's etc) freeing up as many Bundeswehr troops as possible for mobile (offensive) operations. There were six area commands for the HS of which the SH area was one. Each area had 2 brigades (both including armor battallions and apc's) and 2 or 3 motorised infantry regiments (2 for SH). These were all 'independent' formations but a divsional HQ was available to command these (and with 'divisional' support formations). These were available for mobile operations within the area command. For static and coastal defense there were dozens and dozens of independent platoons, companies and a few battallions as well as naval troops and air force security formations. HS could be called up rather quickly (as they served in their own area). Readyness levels for the brigades were as high as 90% for some. So six brigades you already mentioned, add 4 brigade equivalent HS formations and you have 10. The Danes created a couple of small brigade like formations to support and the ACE quick reaction force had allocated a minimum of 1 brigade. Actuallt a UK light mech brigade was earmarked for the area and could be ready on short notice as well as the rest of the ACE force. So NATO did in fact have a force of about 12 brigades (assuming a couple of days warning) excluding local and coastal defense. Narwan ps this area was one of the first I checked out and I noticed a lot of NATO forces missing. So I agree with your assesment of something needing to be fixed RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 11-04-2008 tazaaron Wrote:I have those units u listed in a mod called The Bolt out of the Blue, its on page 4 now heres the link. I looked at your MOD. Interesting proposition and timeline (1989). Also very nice graphic mods and finely detailed OOB. I have only looked it over though, since I would never have the time or the inclination to play a campaign of this magnitude on my own (as part of a team perhaps, with me managing 1-2 Corps sectors. Otherwise I would have to be bedridden with a broken leg or something to find the time to actually play a turn. This goes for the Big Germany campaign in D85 as well.). I have a few comments regarding the LandJut area in particular: -You have chosen to have the NGF (with 2 GTA, 5th NVA and 1 PVA(in 2nd tactical echelon)) to execute the attack against both Landjut and the northernmost parts of NORTHAG instead of having the nominally polish led "Coastal Front" accomplish it. This is of course a judgement call, but I think it is a correct one. I just tend to believe that the East germans 5th army would have been used as the northernmost army instead of 2 GTA. The LandJut and BALTAP area was an entirely secondary issue in relation to the main thrust to the south and hence entrusted to the slightly less well equipped WAPA wassals. -You have still chosen to use the polish airborne and soviet, polish and east german marine units against the LandJut area (thus no operations against LandZealand, but again, within the scope of the game it is a free lunch). The landing zones for the polish 6th AB seems a little odd though, since the entire point behind using them here would be to vertically enevelope the Kieler Canal. In your MOD the amphibious units do not suffer any losses either, but they do show up as "Disrupted". Props for that! -To balance this out you have given the option of reinforcing LandJut with the ACE Mobile Force (on the afternoon of the 10th) a french parachute division (on the 11th), the US 82nd airborne, the 2nd MARDIV (plus attached support) and french/spanish marines (all 3 options on the 20th). If exercised, these options (giving the area about 4 division equivalents extra) should make the LandJut area a very tough not to crack (although at the expense of the rest of the SACEUR area). -You have also included both the german territorial units (2 Brigades, one of them attached to the 6th Pzg, and 2 regiments) plus most of the Corps support units. THe 9th US Infantry also shows up driving down from Denmark on the afternoon on the 12th. -A comment on the ACE Mobile Force and the US 9th Motorized showing up within 48 hours: Your scenario is called "Bolt from the Blue", implying less than 24 hours of time between NATO starts to mobilize and war breaks out. Yet both of these units are available within 36 hours of mobilization starting. Needless to say, the ACE Mobile Force would first have to mobilize, gather its troops, organize airtransport and then coordinate the drop. Yet they still manage to arrive 24 hours after mobilization starts. The same goes for the US 9th Infantry (it had no POMCUS stores in Denmark and was based on the US West Coast. I also needed "rounding out" from US NG units before being ready. As noted above this would likely take more than a month to accomplish). So what is the story behind these units being ready almost from the get-go. Were they on exercise in Denmark? -The "Dansk Western Command" HQ should be renamed "LandJut" and positioned in Rendsburg at the start of the game. Whether you make it a "danish" or a "german" unit is up to you. There was a "Danish Western Command" btw. It was the Corps HQ responsible for the defence of the rear areas and danish mainland behind LandJut and for the organisation of the logistical throughput and the mobilization and processing of units and replacement personnel. It thus has no place in the game (unless of course you plan on extending the map to include all of Jutland at some point...). If you need an insignia of the LandJUt crest for the graphics mod, one can be found here: http://www.rendsburg.de/wirtschaft/bundeswehr_landjut.html -You might also remove the "AFNORTH" HQ alltogether, since it was in Kolsaas in Norway. On the other hand this might have some influence on supply and C&C issues in the game. If so, leave it be, but put it somewhere it won´t be in harms way, since it is not really physically "there". -German Corps level units should be attached to the LandJut HQ, not the 6th PzG. -Ditto goes for the Danish "33rd Kanonafdeling", which was a Corps Artillery unit attached to LandJut. -The arrival of the "Jutland Division" is also quite fast. The divisional troops are the first scheduled to arrive at 12.00 on the 10th (The Reconnaisance Battalion (V/JDR), a MOTINF Battalion (IV/FLR), the DIVARTY (23, 24 ArtilleriAfdeling plus the 33rd Artilleriafdeling from Corps artillery as well) and a motorized Engineer battalion (I/JIR)). The problem here is, that while the Recon Battalion might just be able to make it to the border in less than 24 hours after the call for mobilization, the other units certainly will not. I thus propose that you postpone the arrival of the MOTINF BTN with 3-6 hours, the ENG BTN with 6-12 hours and the divisional artillery with about 12-18 hours (even though they had the shortest way to drive they were also the units most relying upon reserve personnel and chartered civilian vehicles showing up at the mobilization depots before being able to deploy). -3rd Jutland Brigade is scheduled to appear at 18.00 on the 10th, a little over 24 hours after the beginning of mobilization. Again, this is pretty damn fast and should be postponed at least 12 hours (thus scheduled to arrive at dawn on the 11th). Again, it would likely take at least 24 hours to get everybody into uniforms, recall civilian vehicles to mobilization stocks, issue weapons, vehicles and ammunition and assembling the Brigades constituent battalions (which comes from different garrisons). It would likely take even longer. -The remnants of the Jutland division arrives in Brigade sized lumps with 12 hour intervals after the 3rd Brigade. Again, I would propose that each Brigade "lump" gets its arrival date postponed at least 12 hours. This might lead to game balance issues though, but in the end it is your call. -I like the way that each reinforcement "lump" only has a 50% arrival chance per turn though. This makes the chaos and haste with which the units are despatched south after mobilization (and the resulting unreliable appearance at the front) a manifest part of the game. A few comments on the Danish OOB itself: -Naming conventions. You mix up danish and english nominations (Danglish?) in the unit titles ("Dansk Western Command" for instance. Which should be either "Danish Western Command" in english or "Vestre Landsdelskommando" in danish, another is the "Jydske Dragoons", which should either be the "Jutland Dragoon Regiment" or "Jyske Dragonregiment"). In order to avoid confusion you ought to stick to one language. . Another example: Each Brigade has an anti tank company in your OOB named "Anti-Akvarium Raket". Directly translated this means "Anti-Fishtank Rocket". The correct title would be "Panserværnskompagni" ("Anti-Tank Company", abbreviated "PVKMP"). Another little detail for the Graphics MOD is the form of the Jutland Divisions and its attached brigades unit crests. If you want to remake the Graphics MOD, here is a little to get you started with regard to the HQ unit crests : http://www.sitecenter.dk/corysan/brugerdefinerethtml4/ (picture 32 and 33) http://www.tsknudsen.dk/ -About this AT-company: By the late 1980s it had been abolished at Brigade level. Instead most of the TOW ATGM launchers had been attached to individual battalions instead. The brigade Tank battalion thus had a platoon (4) TOW on M113s attached to its HQ company and each Armored INfantry battalion had a platoon (4 vehicles) of TOWs on M113s and a platoon (4) of TOWs on Jeeps/Landrovers. The brigade retained 2 platoons (2x4) of TOWs on Jeeps/Landrovers as an AT-reserve (thus each Brigade would have 4 platoons of Jeep TOWs and 3 of M113 TOWs for a Gran total of 28 launchers all told). By the late 1980s all TOW ATGMs had thermal imaging sights (acquired in 1987). -The Brigades had no MOT Infantry Battalions attached. They should be deleted (each Brigade should have 1 Armored, 2 Armored INfantry and 1 Artillery Battalion plus an attached engineer company and the Brigade AT reserve). -The Motorized Infantry Battalion at divisional level (IV/FLR) should only have 4 companies (of 138 men each). 5 (and even 6 company) organizations were reserved for Leg and Motorized Infantry units attached to Coastal Defence Battlegroups and the Local Defence forces. This is due to the way that danish men and units moved through the different mobilization categories as the units (and the men originally in them) got older. The "older" a unit gets in the mobilization system, the more "fat" it grows in manpower is one way of putting it. -The Motorized Infantry Battalions in the Jutland Combat Group should only have between 3-4 companies each (not five) for the above reasons. I would propose that 2 of the Battalions have 3 companies and the last be of the 4 company variety. -Motorized Infantry Coys deployed as the 4th company in either an Armored or Armored Infantry Battalion should have 138 men. It should also have the same hard and Soft attack values as an armored infantry company (it has the exact same weapons). -The first 2 companies of the Armored Battalion should be "pure" tanks (2x10 Leo 1s), not a mixed Leo-1/M113 unit of 2x18 (unless you mean for the M113s to be attached ATGM units?) -The Brigade artillery battalion should consist of 12 upgraded M109A3 and 6 M114/39 towed guns. The M114/39s are recently upgraded 1950s vintage M114s (upgraded during 1985-89. Ditto for the M109s). The values you have assigned to the M114s in the danish OOB seems about right (both the M109s and the M114/39s had DPICM available), but the range could use a Jack or two upwards from the 9 hexes it is currently at (the M114/39 modification made this gun have a range similar to the upgraded M109 or the US M198, both of which are rated at range 11 in the game). -The guns of the two divisional artillery battalions should be renamed to M114/39and their stats modificed to reflect this (as per above.) -The Jutland Battlegroup should have a single Battalion of 24 105mm M101 Howitzers (unupgraded of 1950s vintage. 3 batteries of 8 guns each). Look in the Austrian OOB for the stats of this weapon. This unit should probably also be saddled with the "Low reliability" feature. -The divisional ENG BTN should consist of 3 Minelay/remove capable companies and a single Bridgelaying company with 125 men each. "EDIT": On further thought, make it 3 minelay/remove/bridging capable units and no fourth company (the fourth company was an administrative holding company for the battalions eartmoving vehicles, stores, engineer ammunition, bridging material and so on). -The Centurion Tank destroyer Battalion (VI/JDR, not IV/JDR) should be removed from the Jutland Battlegroup and attached to the 3rd Jutland Brigade (thereby "Supersizing" it). It consisted of 5 tank companies of 10 Centurions each (the oldest ones with 20 Pdr. guns) plus a Motorized infantry Company as the 6th company. -The Reconnaisance battalions should have TIS sights (this was one of the main reasons behind the upgrading of the M41s in the late 80s). -Both the Centurion units in VI/JDR and the M41s in the reconnaisance battalion (V/JDR) should be marked as "Unreliable". The M41s because the upgrade was a misfit (electronics breaking down in the new laser rangefinders and Thermal sights, the new engine breaking down. It was a minor scandal and led to the M41s being quickly replaced with more Leo 1s in the early 90s). The Centurions are "Unreliable" because they haven´t been upgraded or refurbished since the early 60s. They were infamous for breaking down left right and center (wasn´t unheard of for a company to leave the garrison in the morning for maneuvers with 10 tanks and return home in the afternoon with 5-7...) -There should also be an extra danish engineer battalion attached to LandJut (built like the divisional battalion with 3 companies with mine capabilities and bridge building). -The engineer companies in the brigades should have M113 instead of trucks (these companies also retained a capacity to build and maintain smaller bridgespans, but I am unsure whether or not this deserves to be represented in the game.). "EDIT": With further thought and after looking things over, I realise that the brigade engineer companies could only build and maintain smaller bridgespans (of a size that might cover bodies of water marked in light blue on the MC maps). They should thus not be bridge building capable over larger bodies of water. -The Jutland Combat Group should also have a single motorized engineer company (125 men, D quality, Truckborne). -The 33rd Artillery Battalion should not have the FH 70 howitzer (far too modern) but the US M59 155mm "Long Tom " Gun of 1950s vintage (likely with the "Unreliable" trait again). It had 24 of these (3 batteries of 8 guns each). As for the stats of this gun, I think some of the armies in ME67 uses it, so you might be able to take it from there. -Some of the danish units should be demoted to "D" quality. This should probably include the 33rd ArtilleriAfdeling (part of the LandJut Corps troops) and one of the divisional artillery battalions. The MOTINF Battalion IV/FLR (part of the divisional troops) and one of the the MOTINF battalions in the Jutland Battle Group (the one with 4 instead of 3 companies) should also be demoted as should the 105mm Artillery Battalion in the Jutland Battle Group. These units are manner with older reservists with only limited refresher training. -You might also think about demoting the Jutland Divisional HQ and the HQ of the Jutland Battle Group to D quality (The Battle Group staff are of course recalled reserve officers and the quality of the Jutland Div HQ suffered under the fact, that the officers there seldom had the chance to train with more than a brigade at a time, thus leading to potential problems if actually faced with commanding the entire divisional menagerie in practice for real..) -The 5 Centurion Companies of the VI/JDR should be classed as "B", since this unit was staffed with personnel and officers from the Armys Tank Training school. -Feel free to use any of this if you feels it improves your scenario. RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 11-04-2008 Narwan Wrote:So six brigades you already mentioned, add 4 brigade equivalent HS formations and you have 10. The Danes created a couple of small brigade like formations to support and the ACE quick reaction force had allocated a minimum of 1 brigade. Actuallt a UK light mech brigade was earmarked for the area and could be ready on short notice as well as the rest of the ACE force. The HS units in TK Schleswig Holstein totalled 2 regiments of motorized infantry (weak infantry brigades with very few Anti Tank weapons) and 2 semi-armoured brigades (one of which was attached to 6th Panzergrenadier permanently). Out of this, 1 Regiment and 1 Brigade would likely be earmarked to defending Hamburg in a static role. This leaves us with 6th panzergrenadier (with an attached HS Brigade) covering the Inner German border and a single HS regiment covering the rear areas (plus various "Sicherungskompanien" and such, but lets ignore them for the moment). Even with "a few days" warning, the Jutland Division won´t be in position and neither will the ACE Mobile Force or the UKMF. This leaves us with 4 armored Brigades and a weak Infantry brigade to hold the line against an entire WAPA army. After a few days leading elements of the Jutland divisions might make its presence felt and after half a week or so the entire division plus Corps troops will probably have reached its area of responsibility. The Ace Mobile Force and the UKMF requires about a week to be ready too (but can deploy relatively quickly once ready). The problem here is, that neither the UKMF nor the ACE Mobile Force will necessarily go to LandJut (as mentioned above the UKMF might equally go to reinforcing LandZealand instead of LandJut, and the ACE Mobile Force might be sent anywhere from Turkey to the North Cape). The problem is, that by the 1980s, NATO would at best get 3-4 days of warning before a WAPA attack. With this kind fo warning, most of the Jutland Division will still be under deployment and the UKMF and Ace Mobile force will still be marshalling and organising their transport when the attack hits. Danube Fron 85 presents an even gloomier scenrio: Here NATO gets less than 24 hours of warning before the attack hits..... RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Aaron - 11-04-2008 thanks Dragoon, i will comb through all that info and as for your Questions ill have to answer them later running a little behind have to leave. One Q to you those bridging companies, what did they consist of, pontoons AVLBs? Aaron RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - Narwan - 11-04-2008 JDR Dragoon Wrote:The HS units in TK Schleswig Holstein totalled 2 regiments of motorized infantry (weak infantry brigades with very few Anti Tank weapons) and 2 semi-armoured brigades (one of which was attached to 6th Panzergrenadier permanently). Out of this, 1 Regiment and 1 Brigade would likely be earmarked to defending Hamburg in a static role. This leaves us with 6th panzergrenadier (with an attached HS Brigade) covering the Inner German border and a single HS regiment covering the rear areas (plus various "Sicherungskompanien" and such, but lets ignore them for the moment). Even with "a few days" warning, the Jutland Division won´t be in position and neither will the ACE Mobile Force or the UKMF. This leaves us with 4 armored Brigades and a weak Infantry brigade to hold the line against an entire WAPA army. After a few days leading elements of the Jutland divisions might make its presence felt and after half a week or so the entire division plus Corps troops will probably have reached its area of responsibility. The Ace Mobile Force and the UKMF requires about a week to be ready too (but can deploy relatively quickly once ready). The problem here is, that neither the UKMF nor the ACE Mobile Force will necessarily go to LandJut (as mentioned above the UKMF might equally go to reinforcing LandZealand instead of LandJut, and the ACE Mobile Force might be sent anywhere from Turkey to the North Cape). Taking the last point first. I can understand that being an assumption for making a better game but the reality was that the minimum preparation time for an out-of-the-barracks attack by the WP was measured in weeks (or even months depending on the period you look at). Assuming off course a division goes on the offensive as a whole division and not the reinforced battallion they could muster in a day or two from peace-time status. There's a world of difference of preparing combat formations for complex offensive operations and getting them there and to call up reserves from the area to equip and deploy units in their own area. I'm always puzzled how people can imagine the WP puppet armies to be mustered and deployed so quickly yet NATO activation takes for ever. The activation procedures for the UK reserves for europe, the dutch and the german HS were quite advanced and had proven themselves in extensive tests. These would be ready much sooner than the Poles for example. There's always assumptions neede of course as the whole game is what-if but I feel the whole idea of 'from the barracks' attacks is at odds with the amount of troops actually available in the game for the WP. They seem to have had all the time to prepare but NATO didn't. What NATO planners knew for a fact (as corroborated from info gotten after the collapse of the WP) was that they would have ample time to react. So they could allow for dedicating reserves to these roles. The only thing the WP might have gotten away with was to prepare only the soviet units in eastgermany and attack with these. Preparing the WP allies was tantamount to calling NATO themselves. But since every variant I looked at sofar allows for a fair number of Polish, east german and soviet reserve formations (again whose preperation time would extend into months before being combat ready) it's not much to allow NATO a few days of preparation. The current 'trade off' for the game is imo extremely unrealistic, at least to the point of a 'fantasy' set-up than a serious what-if. As to the defense of the region; Hamburg is on the boundary between the regions. It would be likely cut-off from the rest of the peninsula fairly soon. It doesn't make sense to allot units to it's defense from a command (Landjut) from which they would then be physically detached. So two options, either they would in fact not stay in Hamburg but with the rest of the command or they weren't afraid of being cut-off (see my points above). Personally I find the second rather likely. I don't think the WP could have made it to Hamburg in a conventional scenario let alone cut it off.  The assignment of these HS formations to the defense of Hamburg is debatable. They may have been stationed in that area but so was just about all of the 6th division. Doesn't mean they'll fight there when the combat time arrives. From what I've been able to deduce Hamburg would be defended by a large number of additional smaller HS formations (basically everyone between hamburg and the border from these smaller formations would fall back to the city and add to the 5 or so dedicated companies) and be reinforced from the west, either by additional NATO or HS troops (there were two more HS regions behind Hamburg with their HS formations). Again working with the assumption of enough warning time that makes sense. Their equipment might not have been the best but was still decent. In the mid 80's milans would have been the primairy AT weapon in many companies (with the SH command at the top of the list of getting the best equipment first) with M48's and 90mm destroyers in support. Pretty decent for defensive operations. Narwan RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 11-04-2008 The whole point of Danube 85 is that WAPA uses their spring maneuver (Zapad 85) as a cover for forward deployment of polish troops (among other things). Haven´t you read the games historical background folder ;-). About WAPA readiness: I am willing to accept that polish mobilization would have taken quite some time (and Czech too for that matter), perhaps up to a week. But the NVA retained 85% readiness among their standing forces (their reserve formations would of course have taken a few days to call up and equip) and the GSFG was not that far behind. That was after all the entire point behind Marshall Ogarkovs raising the operational readiness in the GSFG in the late 70s: Namely that WAPA would have a shot at beating NATOs "Vorneverteidigung" before it could be properly reinforced. Luckily we didn´t get to find out whether WAPA could actually have beaten us to the punch. Besides even with a handful of MILANs and a few KaJaPas in their Schwere Kompanie it is not like the HS Regiments are swimming in AT weapons ;-) RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - JDR Dragoon - 11-04-2008 tazaaron Wrote:thanks Dragoon, i will comb through all that info and as for your Questions ill have to answer them later running a little behind have to leave. One Q to you those bridging companies, what did they consist of, pontoons AVLBs? The entire danish army had the princely number of 4 old ex-canadian 2nd hand Centurion AVLBs in the 1980s (both 1985 and 1989). Afaik these were split 50/50 between the Jutland Divisions divisional engineer battalion and the ENG BTN supporting LandZealand (each having 2 Bridgelayers). I am not even sure that 2 Centurion AVLBs even warrants inclusion in the game. So most of the bridgelaying would have been done like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZR6PZ-n328 RE: NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85 - alaric99x - 11-04-2008 Narwan Wrote:What NATO planners knew for a fact (as corroborated from info gotten after the collapse of the WP) was that they would have ample time to react. I can verify that, at least in part. I worked in the (US) Berlin Brigade HQ Communication Center from '73 to '75. We were in the basement of the HQ complex located on Clayallee. It was a secret then, but not anymore. We had daily reports about any convoy movement in East Germany, and well beyond, including time of movement, units, equipment, origin and destination. Daily reports of maritime movements and sorties by WP air units, including aircraft numbers, types, units, and origins and destinations. It was a TS (top secret) facility and I had access to the daily intel reports. Based on my experience, it's hard for me to imagine that NATO would ever have been surprised by a WP attack. |
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