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Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Black Powder & Cold Steel (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=163) +---- Forum: Ancient Wars (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=69) +---- Thread: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry (/showthread.php?tid=53143) Pages:
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Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Vaevictis - 10-08-2009 What's your opinion on how best to depict these troops in the game? Spear or sword? Phalangite or heavy infantry? What works best for a would be scenario designer? RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Al Amos - 10-08-2009 Here is my approach. For what-if or, table-top battles, I like to make a simple phalanx, based on the Macedonian model. On each line is the best Phoenician terms I could find (or piece together) for unit labels, followed by what the units represent followed by type. Hope this helps. Phalangitai Kena'ani - Phoenician phalanx - HI or MI w/spear or pike. (These are true Carthaginian citizens of Phoenician blood line.) Phalangitai Libyes - Lybian phalanx - HI or MI w/spear or pike. (These are the natives of the area conquered by Carthage. This would be the most common type of Phalangitai.) - I put the above into 256 man units (syntagma). 16 of these blocks make the main phalanx. I add 5 leaders to them, I make one group. The additional leaders allows players to split the phalanx into four groups of four if they wish. Total: 4,096. Lonchophoroi Libyes Kena'ani - Lybian/Phoenician LMI w/spear or javelin. (Carthage's verision of a peltast. These would be the mixed blood of natives in the area and Phoenicians. Using this type at Trebbia definitely shows why the Roman velites could not 'win' the skirmish battle.) I make 16 units of 128 men for this type. Total: 2,048 They can cover the enitre front of the phalanx or be deployed with eight units on each flank. I add four leaders and group them into four groups of four units. Grosphomachoi Mauretaniani - Moorish Skirmishers - LI w/spear or javelin. (These would be native North Africans tribesmen to the west of Carthage.) I put these guys into 16 units of 64 men, or sometimes I split the 16 units in half, and field 32 counters of 32 men. I add four leaders and make four groups of either four units, or eight half units. They fight in front of the Lonchophoroi. If I am going to deploy the Lonchophoroi to the flanks of the Phalangitai, then I use the hald units and cover the whole front. Total: 1,024. I add 1,024 cavalrymen to the phalanx. I put 64 men in 16 units. I add four leaders and make four units. Two per flank. This gives you: 4,096 Phalangitai 2,048 Lonchophoroi (peltasts) 1,024 Grosphomachoi (psloi) 1,024 Hippikè or Prodromoi (HC, MC or LC) 8,192 TOTAL A couple of other unit labels with my definition. Hippikè Libyes Kena'ani - Lybian/Phoenician cavalry Prodromoi Lorci - light cavalry (Not Numidian) The Numidian tribes were: Massyli - Masaeyli - Maccoei - Areacidae Also there were the Gaetulians. A tribe like the Numidians that supplied LC to Carthage. Carthage had two 'sacred bands'. I think they were destroyed in battle during the 1st PW. For the infantry: Hieros lochos Baal I'm not sure of the strength but was supposedly like the Theban sacred band, so 300 men? For the cavalry: Hieros lochos Astarte Not sure, 300 men, maybe? The above numbers work nicely with Hannibal having seven such 'complete phalanxes' with him before he left Spain. I chose seven because at the time that the Spartan general reorganized Carthage's army during the 1st PW, Sparta had seven mora in its army, so maybe the Spartan copied that idea in Carthage, and maybe Hannibal used that as a model. I had a nice doc made up, but lost it this summer with my computer's meltdown. If anyone on the design team has a copy... ;-) RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - dean beecham - 10-09-2009 Nice info Al. This would be nice to have in the , What every member needs to know topic. RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - TJD - 10-09-2009 dean beecham Wrote:Nice info Al. It sure is. One of the great things about AW iis that it captures and makes vivid this kind of scholarship. Thanks, Al. Tim RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Al Amos - 10-09-2009 Thanks guys, but keep in mind much of it is my opinion from what I've read. It could be spot on, or a bunch of hogwash. I do know that the games with the above army are fun to play. :cool: RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Vaevictis - 10-09-2009 Research like that makes the game twice as good! Thanks for sharing. RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Dog Soldier - 10-10-2009 I can add threads like this to the What every member needs to know topic by a link. I think I will wait a few months, and see what other threads develop to be added there. That sticky thread will always be open to adding new things. Dog Soldier RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Jolly Roger - 10-11-2009 Gentlemen. Before Rome declared war on the Seleukidian Empire, envoys were sent, Scipio Africanus was one of them . He met Hannibal, who escaped from Carthage to Antiochus III, King of the Seleukidian Empire, to avoid prosecution. The two famous Generals discussed historical battles while the Roman delegation tried to prevent a Syrian invasion of Greece. Hannibal considered Pyrrhus one of the best commanders of all times, but criticized him for using the Phalanx tactic, as it wasn´t suitable for the italian terrain. In my opinion the Lybian HI was probably equiped with heavy throwing spears, but the most impressibe weapon of Hannibal´s HI, was the Falcata used by the Spanish Mercenaries. Cheers, Klaus 
RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Al Amos - 10-11-2009 Klaus, If true, that would explain how Hannibal could re-epuip his troops with Roman weapons after Trebbia, Trasemane, and Cannae without needing to retrain them in combat. Also, how much of the conversation was 20-20 hindsight meaning that since he, Hannibal tried using the phalanx, and failed winning the war.... With other weapons such as a spear, decent sized shield, and sword the basic 'phalanx' organization is still a good one. Using 8-12 ranks instead, it becomes more Greek. If the troops are armed as the Spanish (and Romans) it can be flexible in battle. Trying to think of where Hannibal's main 'African' HI fought in a manner that would definitely rule out a phalanx, and can't come up with any. Just some thoughts. RE: Hannibal's Libyan Infantry - Al Amos - 10-11-2009 By the way. For anyone wanting to build phalanx subunits of different strengths the following may be helpful. One hex = 20 meters, if you put 16 files in a hex that leaves each man 1.25 meters to move around in. This is in the range that I've seen in different sources for the interval per man. So.... 16 files x 4 ranks = 64 16 files x 6 ranks = 96 16 files x 8 ranks = 128 16 files x 10 ranks = 160 16 files x 12 ranks = 192 16 files x 14 ranks = 224 16 files x 16 ranks = 256 A Roman century would be 10 files x 6 ranks = 60 or, 10 files x 8 ranks = 80 A maniple could be with centuries side by side, or one behind the other. If side by side, the maniple could occupy two of our hexes, or the interval may be reduced to 1 meter per man, and then it would be 20 files x 6 ranks = 120 or, 20 files x 8 ranks = 160 If the centuries went one behind the other then it would be 10 files x 12 = 120 or, 10 files x 16 = 160 NOTE: In the rules, Paul has set the troops per rank for HI, MI at 24 (.83 meters per man.) As an aside, I think at Cannae the Romans formed up with centuries one behind the other, THEN, the intervals were closed up, so in our games it would end up being two maniples in each hex 20 files x 16 = 320. Wow! That post just wandered around, didn't it? Too much Mountain Dew today during work! hehehe... |
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