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Implementing Plan XVII - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Implementing Plan XVII (/showthread.php?tid=58348) |
Implementing Plan XVII - jonnymacbrown - 03-09-2011 Implementing Plan XVII The natural tendency playing the French in F 14 is to assume that Plan XVII is fatally flawed, and that it is a good idea to get out of the Ardennes asap. What makes this seem true is the precarious position of both the French 3rd Colonial Division, as well as the French 33rd Infantry Division which, like the 3rd DIC, begins the game split asunder and under heavy pressure. However, nobody ever made an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Here are the facts: French IV Armee has 250,000 men and 772 guns. They are up against German 4 AOK with 161,000 men 678 guns. So right off the bat, IV Armee has an edge of 90,000 men and 94 guns and is poised to attack. Why not go for it? There cannot be any hesitation. Nor can the French engage in infantry musket duels. The French must assault at every opportunity. Sometimes French assaults fall astray but conversely; with those high assault values, you can win three or four assaults in a row and knock off some of those fearsome Hun MG units. The high French assault factors can definitely take the Hun by surprise. Élan can stun him! The map [u]9e Corps attack[/u] shows the advance for 17th DI, beefed up with 7 batteries of guns to advance and take the high ground to the north thus holding up any advance of German VIII Korps strung out on the road to Givet. This allows 21st DI, 11e Corps, to advance on the right, cross the river and assist 22 DI in the attack on the severely outmanned and outgunned German 25th ID Hesse . The next map, 11e Corps attacks shows this in more detail: Both the German 25th Hesse Division and the 21st ID, XVIII Korps are in trouble. The 25th has its back to the river can be completely annihilated as there is no help for them as the other division in the Korps, the 21st is already engaged: They have the French 33rd DI in a pickle and the 33rd will lose 700 men and a few guns on the first turn. But that’s as bad as it gets. German XVIII Korps has 29,000 men and 160 guns. But they can be completely overwhelmed by 11e Corps and 17e Corps with 66,000 men and 237 guns. French 4th Cavalry Division can lend support on Day 2 with an additional 5,000 troops. The map 17e Corps attacks with 17e Corps hi-lighted shows the situation. It’s easy meat on the table and they can’t be rescued by XVIII Reserve Korps coming from the east since they are about to be fiercely attacked by French 12e Corps. German XVIII Reserve Korps is strung out on the road to Neufchateau. Here are the numbers: French 12e Corps = 34,500 men & 120 guns, German XVIII Reserve Korps = 28,000 & 72 guns. The map 12e Corps attacks shows this. 12e Corps is highlighted and also observe the French 9th Cavalry Division, which is fixed, mauled and resting, but perfectly positioned to lend support without even moving by protecting 12e Corps advance on the left. In two days those troops will be ready to fight, and if necessary protect the retreat. The line of advance is laid out: 23rd DI north toward Neufchateau, and 24th DI north along the tracks to the left. To the right of 12e Corps is the independent French 5th Brigade, attached to Colonial Corps, which must attack hard to the right to rescue 1st Brigade, French 3rd Colonial DI which is in the jaws of death. That’s another problem, and while 1st Brigade is going to get mauled, the German 12th ID can’t stand up to a sustained attack by the “A” rated 5th Brigade, the best outfit in the French Army. The map 3rd Colonial shows the situation. The 3rd Brigade, 3rd DIC (hi-lighted) can advance and establish itself on the high ground in front of it and become extremely difficult to dislodge. Every available bridge engineer unit must be immediately rushed to the scene to build bridges to maintain contact with 3rd DI in case things don’t quite go according to plan. This will be an even and fair fight which can go either way. The French 2nd DI Colonial, “B” rated 13,000 men and 25 guns are on the scene, strung out on the east-west road, and fixed until the evening can either mop up on Day 2 or turn the tide. It’s a good division to have in reserve only a short march from the fight. Now what we don’t want to do is end up like Varus who lost 3 Legions in the black forests of Germania and had his head sent back to Rome on a silver platter. But we can use all the available resources of French IV Armee: Since the Germans will not be able to advance on Givet nor Fumay, this frees up 51st DI (Ve Armee) to assist in the defense of Dinant, and also allows 60e DIR to get in on the fun and form a reserve on the left of 12e Corps and eventually assist in the attack. The right is protected by 2e Corps, 33,000 men & 120 guns, up against German V Korps, 26,000 men and 72 guns which can be hit in flank and mauled since they are frontally engaged with 4e Corps, IIIe Armee. While you’re at it, load up the 18th DI, 9e Corps on RR. They are near Nancy and send them back up to 9e Corps near Sedan. Nancy isn’t going to fall so don’t worry about it. This will take a day. Please leave the Moroccan Division, the best division in the French Army right where they are; being perfectly positioned to go anywhere by road or rail. They are your Iron Reserve. The question is, can this kind of attack win the game? Certainly German 4th Army can be overwhelmed as its units are all strung out on roads and not concentrated for an attack. Nor are they ready to receive an attack. However, can the French far left hold against von Kluck’s 1st Army and Bulow’s 2nd Army? But like Buddy Ryan used to say “This ain’t a game for sissies.” You are going to take a lot of hits as the French playing this game, might as well take ‘em while dishing out some good punishment. [attachment=3147][attachment=3150][attachment=3151][attachment=3148][attachment=3152] RE: Implementing Plan XVII - Volcano Man - 03-09-2011 Good info on a possible opening strategy. It is certainly a viable option to continue the Plan XVII attacks to slap the Germans in the face in the center. What it boils down to, deep in the Ardennes, is a division on division battle - usually happening independently of each other. Both the French and the Germans have to fend each other off and reorganize / consolidate their advancing units, as both are superior and inferior to each other in different places. The initial period of the campaign (and the Ardennes scenario) can be very exciting and frantic in this sector. However, I would be cautious in the Nancy sector - at least initially. Saying not to worry at all about because it will not fall can be false, depending on the circumstances. I have seen Nancy come very close to falling from the initial German attack towards the south in that sector. Naturally however, you can gauge the success of the German push at Nancy and adjust accordingly since everything in these perfect strategies always depends on what the Germans do and how they react. Back in the Ardennes, you are correct that the 25th Hesse Div is in a bad place and (as was historical) it needs to fall back across the river when under great pressure, then hold the crossings indefinitely with careful placement of MGKs and field guns. Speaking of which, continual French pressure must be met with careful positioning of German machine guns and field artillery to cover the roads and bridges, and they must of course adopt a defensive posture to wear down the French if the French continue to attack. I played an exciting game as the French where I crashed head first into the Germans who did the same, and in most sectors they had to fall back and go on the defensive which is where I gradually ran out of steam. In some places I was pushing back the Germans while in others (just several km away in some places) I was in full rout. Continual piling on of additional forces might help keep up some form of momentum, but it can be assumed that the Germans would need to push their reserves in and go on the defensive in an intelligent manner to counter (and not keep attacking mindlessly forward). Of course the grand picture is not to hang around in the Ardennes too long, I would think the French have to voluntarily withdraw or they risk being in the wrong place when the 2nd and 3rd German Armies are banging up on the French 5th Army. Historically the fighting in the Ardennes was very bloody on both sides and (overall) the Germans did not come out as well as they had liked to. I look at the Ardennes sector as a Pearl Harbor type situation; the Germans need to be successful immediately by destroying as much as possible, then prepare for the back lash! :eek1: As a side note on something this reminds me of: one day I would like for there to be a Political Victory Termination condition to where the campaign can end suddenly (similar to the Nuclear Termination rule in MC series) the moment that a Major Victory condition is achieved. This would allow the possibility of adding in more objectives in the Ardennes and at Metz to make it possible for the French to actually win off of Plan XVII attacks if they do well enough with it, rather than just hope to stun the Germans with the Plan XVII attacks. This might allow for an earlier starting campaign scenario where both sides can pick their initial plan options. Oh well, maybe one day! :whis: RE: Implementing Plan XVII - FM WarB - 03-09-2011 (03-09-2011, 09:19 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: As a side note on something this reminds me of: one day I would like for there to be a Political Victory Termination condition to where the campaign can end suddenly (similar to the Nuclear Termination rule in MC series) the moment that a Major Victory condition is achieved. This would allow the possibility of adding in more objectives in the Ardennes and at Metz to make it possible for the French to actually win off of Plan XVII attacks if they do well enough with it, rather than just hope to stun the Germans with the Plan XVII attacks. This might allow for an earlier starting campaign scenario where both sides can pick their initial plan options. Oh well, maybe one day! :whis: Strategic options and an early start would be fun. All we need is a Dutch army to face a real Schlieffen plan moving north of Liege. Who has information on the 1914 Dutch, though? ...Johnniiemac just luvs the Ardennes...LoL RE: Implementing Plan XVII - Volcano Man - 03-10-2011 (03-09-2011, 11:00 PM)FM WarB Wrote:(03-09-2011, 09:19 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: As a side note on something this reminds me of: one day I would like for there to be a Political Victory Termination condition to where the campaign can end suddenly (similar to the Nuclear Termination rule in MC series) the moment that a Major Victory condition is achieved. This would allow the possibility of adding in more objectives in the Ardennes and at Metz to make it possible for the French to actually win off of Plan XVII attacks if they do well enough with it, rather than just hope to stun the Germans with the Plan XVII attacks. This might allow for an earlier starting campaign scenario where both sides can pick their initial plan options. Oh well, maybe one day! :whis: Yes, that would be nice. Choose the option to go through lower Holland and trigger some Dutch forces in front and arriving north of the area. I am not sure how effective they would be, but they would certainly act as a speed bump. What would be even nicer is if there was a +/- predefined VP point boost when a certain strategy/operation is selected. So many options... RE: Implementing Plan XVII - Ricky B - 03-10-2011 Well I have to say the summary of the situation in the Ardennes is excellent, thanks for the comments by both of you gentlemen above. I found it most interesting, for when we get a big team battle going :). Rick RE: Implementing Plan XVII - -72- - 03-10-2011 Depending upon if you can swing that Political Termination mechanism (it would seem to also have some uses in some other series). Why stop there? :smoke: You could allow players to become their own Schlieffen, and plan to run through Switzerland instead. Although where one finds a 1914 OOB for Switzerland- I wouldn't have a clue. RE: Implementing Plan XVII - Mr Grumpy - 03-10-2011 (03-10-2011, 07:29 AM)trauth116 Wrote: Although where one finds a 1914 OOB for Switzerland- I wouldn't have a clue.  :whis:
RE: Implementing Plan XVII - -72- - 03-10-2011 (03-10-2011, 05:43 PM)Foul. Wrote:(03-10-2011, 07:29 AM)trauth116 Wrote: Although where one finds a 1914 OOB for Switzerland- I wouldn't have a clue. Ok ...well Nafziger of course ... stop that Foul. I rely on you for tangible information :P
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