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7th Grenadiers @ Virton - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton (/showthread.php?tid=58789) |
7th Grenadiers @ Virton - jonnymacbrown - 05-12-2011 Was there ever any thought to making these fellows "B" units? Does that fact that the Kaiser's son Prinz Oskar was in command make any difference? The Hesse Leib regiments are B. What makes some Hun units B? Also, the study below says French 4th Corps was in Virton on the morning of the 22nd (page 6). Thanks jonny :smoke: There are some pictures of the battlefields today here: http://www.webmatters.net/belgium/ww1_bellefontaine_01.htm Also if there is any interest in the battle of Virton there is one here: Combined Arms Research Library Digital Library Critical analysis of the Battle of Virton, August 22, 1914. http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4013coll14&CISOPTR=599&CISOBOX=1&REC=7 RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - larsonney - 05-12-2011 Very interesting read, especially the critical analysis! ;) RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - Volcano Man - 05-12-2011 If I am not mistaken, the French 4th CA *is* in Virton on the 22nd in F14. I recall reading about the Virton area extensively and am intimately familiar with it; the French were attacking north of Virton in the morning and as the notes say, the French attack is sped up by about one turn - the notes explain why. Read _The Battle of the Frontiers: Ardennes 1914_ (Zuber) if you want to read about the battle. The book is a bit pro-German but nevertheless, it is a great book with a lot of new data that was previously unknown. You just have to read it for the timelines and the historical actions and take the evaluations on German and French forces with a pound of salt. As for GR.7, no, I didn't feel like they warranted being rated as B. The justification of rating a German infantry regiment as B is only reserved for the regiments that were "guard" regiments of a one of the Germanic states. AFAICR, GR.7 was not the Hesse Leib Garde, they were formerly the Konigsgrenadier Regiment 7 in the Franco Prussian War, which was something special then, but in WW1 they were just an ordinary infantry regiment as far as I know. They were actually a Prussian regiment (Westpreußisches), and all the Prussian guards units were, at the time of WW1, in the guard divisions. The only exception to my rule on rating units as B, is with the Pomeranian corps (AK.I & II) because they were known to be the elite of all line infantry division, and the other exception is if a specific regiment was known to be very effective because of some decentralized based unique tactics. An example of this would be the regiment Rommel was in at the start of the war which utilized jaeger like tactics and were known to be very effective at it. It was recently brought to my attention that I overlooked this so I will fix that in the next update (IR.124). Other than that, it is up to interpretation but it does follow some form of logic. ;) RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - jonnymacbrown - 05-12-2011 "If I am not mistaken, the French 4th CA *is* in Virton on the 22nd in F14." French 4th CA is @ hex 334-194 quite far from Virton. I really doesn't matter for game play; just thought you might want to know. Thanks for the ratings info. jonny  "Very interesting read, especially the critical analysis!" ;) I'm sure the fellow who wrote that study back in 1932 could never have imagined we'd be computer wargaming out the battle sitting at a teleprompter wiring moves over transcontinental distances instantaneously! :cheeky: RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - jonnymacbrown - 05-13-2011 "Very interesting read, especially the critical analysis!" ;) I am also sorry to, and shamefully woe to admit that I have lost the Battle of Virton to an esteemed opponent. As you can see he has avoided one of the mistakes outlined in the paper, i.e. the hasty withdrawal of French 2 Corps. Here, 2 Corps is thrown in with 4 Corps to stop the Hun. With disordered units hi-lighted and it being 1600 I am forced to withdraw to the higher ground and lick my wounds. A sorry day for Prinz Oskar and the 7th Grenadiers! ![[Image: 29f09b5a92Virton.jpg]](https://www.theblitz.club/uploads/users/29f09b5a92Virton.jpg)
RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - Volcano Man - 05-13-2011 (05-12-2011, 06:31 PM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: "If I am not mistaken, the French 4th CA *is* in Virton on the 22nd in F14." Ahh, you mean the 4e CA HQ unit. Hmm, that may be true - I will look into that. Thanks. RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - Volcano Man - 05-13-2011 (05-13-2011, 04:10 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: "Very interesting read, especially the critical analysis!" ;) That doesn't look too bad really, I would say that if the 9.Inf.Div can hold off the French there around Virton then they did a good job -- the main objective there should be to just inflict heavy losses on the French and to hold your ground. If the Germans are pushed back there then it makes it very hard for them to advance further in a timely manner on the days ahead. There is no denying that the French are on the offensive there and historically, if I am not mistaken, the end result was the French battering the German 9.Inf.Div to the north of Virton in their attempt to push through. The Germans held and inflicted heavy losses. I would say that you would only lose the Battle of Virton if the German 9.Inf.Div cannot at least hold what they have and stop the advance of the French from Virton and any advance east from Meix-Devant-Virton (if I am not mistake, the 9.Inf.Div had no intention of attacking Virton itself, it is only a target of opportunity). If you can hold, then you are doing good, but then again, there is nothing wrong with having higher standards. :) RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - alaric99x - 05-13-2011 (05-13-2011, 04:10 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: "Very interesting read, especially the critical analysis!" ;) Thanks for your laudatory comments. No shame here, and you haven't lost this battle yet. I didn't really even attack, just massed MG and Art units to try to drive back the Germans by fire. I understand that the most sensible thing for me to do is to try to conduct an orderly withdrawal all along the front, and that's my general plan. It's just that there are areas where I can sense some general weakness and am able to conduct limited offensive actions in order to slow down your offensive. RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - jonnymacbrown - 05-16-2011 "There is no denying that the French are on the offensive there and historically, if I am not mistaken, the end result was the French battering the German 9.Inf.Div to the north of Virton in their attempt to push through. The Germans held and inflicted heavy losses." The situation is a bloodbath of immense proportions because The French Army in F 14 has very potent firepower and a better command structure than the Germans: Some A & B rated commanders (do the Germans have any?) plus 5 levels of command; Joffre'-Army-Corps-Division-Brigade to only four for the Germans until von Moltke makes his belated entry. I think if you are going to attack early on as the French, you need to go for it ruthlessly and without heed to losses; use those 11 assault rating plus those A & B morale rated infantry to great effect. It is possible to stun the Germans and having done it as the French, I'm very careful now as German commander: Any German player charging in willy-nilly can get his head chopped off! jonny 
RE: 7th Grenadiers @ Virton - FM WarB - 05-17-2011 The french forces charging into the Ardennes just might find themselves in a pot de chambre if II and III Korps get up a head of steam marching down the west bank of the Meuse. |
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