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Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. (/showthread.php?tid=65059) Pages:
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Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Pewpewchewchew - 10-04-2013 Hi folks, I've been interested in buying a PzC game for quite a while now, and after playing the android app, I've picked up a copy of Sicily 43. My problem at the moment is the sheer amount of turns compared to the amount of time needed to conduct successful assaults. I can't even press though the Getting Started scenario due to a few things. Out of the ten or so turns given I find that a engagement will usually use about two to three turns to resolve. Now I have a general list of questions that I'd like clarified. Normally I try to move a unit just one hex out of the enemy, de-travel them then move adjacent and being to fire disrupt then assault the enemy. 1. Does direction matter at all? Ex are two units in the same hex as effective as two units firing from different hexes into the same enemy unit? Does this matter for firing or assaulting? 2. Do these disrupted/low ammo/ isolated events stack? I've been playing with FOV off, so I see these assault odds. If I assault a 100 man group who are isolated and low on ammo, do their effective man power drop to 25? 3. Is there anyway to reasonably determine whether or not an enemy unit will pull back after an assault? In the Sicily 43 getting started scenario, one of the Italian costal def squads will pull back after 4 losses, yet a construction battalion won't after losing 20+ men in an single assault. 4. Both of the previous assaults were conducted with very high odds, 150:29, what is a good ratio for assaulting? 5. Does terrain effect the attacker at all? If I shoot from the high ground would it do more damage than being level or below a enemy formation? 6. There is no combined arms buff correct? Only a penalty for having inadequate infantry support. RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Ricky B - 10-04-2013 Great to hear you picked up the gam after trying the Android! Regarding your questions: 1.Direction/facing makes no difference (with the exception of some German coastal artillery in Normandy). The advantage of stacking units and firing them together is they both fire before any enemy defensive fire is taken. But then separate hexes allows one to draw defensive fire while the other is held for an assault, without any risk of it being disrupted early by defensive fire if stacked with a firing unit. 2.Yes, various modifiers are cumulative. There may be some that add rather than apply separately, but I think these are mostly defensive fire modifiers. 3. The only time a defender withdraws from an assault is when the defender is disrupted - either prior to the assault or as a result of the assault - and the attaker has at least one undisrupted assaulting unit. So it is random if the defender is not disrupted before the assault. 4. I generally think more about strength odds in an assault, as I don't play with FOW off normally. I won't normally assault unless the defender is disrupted, unless I have probably 3 times the strength and the defender is already battered from losses, or higher if it is fresh. 5. The higher unit has an advantage in an exchange of fire, as any fire it receives (it may still be the "attacker") will be reduced in strength. The higher unit doesn't have any other advantages. I don't beleive the height modifier applies to an assault. 6. Correct, assaulting with various units types provides no advantage, outside of avoiding penalties in some terrain. And no impact on fire as each shot is resolved separately in the innards of the game, even if made together. Anything else, let us know. Rick RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Pewpewchewchew - 10-09-2013 Thanks for the help Rick! Alright time for a second set of questions. 1. What determines reaction fire shots? Do the different states, disrupted/low on ammo, effect reaction fire? 2. The isolated condition occurs when a formation has a supply income of zero, that is either that they cannot trace a line of supply back to a depot or that the tile they are in has a supply value of zero correct? 3. A force's ZOC eliminates "cuts off" enemy supply correct? So I don't have to make a line of troops to surround the enemy, I can space them out enough. 4. I see that I cannot fire with infantry into pillbox's and bunker defenses, but I can assault them. I presume that these locations use the hard attack value for fire, correct? 5. I see that some tank formations are able to shoot from more than one hex away. How big is the drop in effectiveness? 6. Is there any penalty for combining or breaking down units? 7. Besides a reduction in fire & LOS, what else does elevation do? 8. What are some good introductory scenarios in Sicily 43? 9. Which campaign variant is best for starting players? RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Mr Grumpy - 10-10-2013 (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: Thanks for the help Rick! Alright time for a second set of questions.They are determined at random, low ammo deduces the effect of the fire and i believe disruption does as well. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 2. The isolated condition occurs when a formation has a supply income of zero, that is either that they cannot trace a line of supply back to a depot or that the tile they are in has a supply value of zero correct?Isolation occurs when you cannot trace a line of hex's free of enemy units or ZOC to a supply source which might be at the map edge or actually located on the map. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 3. A force's ZOC eliminates "cuts off" enemy supply correct? So I don't have to make a line of troops to surround the enemy, I can space them out enough.Yes (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 4. I see that I cannot fire with infantry into pillbox's and bunker defenses, but I can assault them. I presume that these locations use the hard attack value for fire, correct?Yes, hard targets can only be fired on by units with a hard attack value and a range of at least one hex. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 5. I see that some tank formations are able to shoot from more than one hex away. How big is the drop in effectiveness?I believe there is a drop in effectiveness, but i cannot recall what the reduction is. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 6. Is there any penalty for combining or breaking down units?A smaller units fire effect will be reduced due to there simply being less vehicles or men firing and smaller units suffer greater fatigue, this is explained in the fatigue section. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 7. Besides a reduction in fire & LOS, what else does elevation do?It costs more movement points if you move to a higher elevation. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 8. What are some good introductory scenarios in Sicily 43?Started: A Route to Ribera or "A Bridge Too Far" is just fine for learning the game system, i believe this scenario comes with a set of notes specifically to talk you through the basics. (10-09-2013, 03:56 AM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: 9. Which campaign variant is best for starting players?I my opinion none, the quickest way to frustration with these games is trying to play the monster scenarios before you fully understand the rules and game system, a much better approach is to play smaller scenarios and slowly build up to the larger ones as your experience grows. Good luck.... 
RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Pewpewchewchew - 10-10-2013 Thanks Foul. I have a third and hopefully final list of questions. 1. Does ZOC extent hex bordering terrain? Like rivers, streams and embankments and stuff. 2. Does ZOC "go through" enemy formations when calculating isolation? So take for example an enemy unit is surrounded from all sides expect for one side which has a enemy unit. I had a situation where I seemed to isolate a formation despite there being some troops adjacent to the force isolated. I didn't form a bubble around both units, I simply moved to surround the one unit with ZOC. 3. Is isolation an immediate process or do I have to wait a turn for it to show up? 4. Likewise, can I somehow manually refresh the spotting of enemy formations? If I can move one troop to a high ground position and have LOS over a chunk of the battle, is there any way I can save the remaining movement points rather than let them go to waste and end the turn? 5. In the manual it states that disruption is calculated by a random dice roll compared to the morale of the defending unit. If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to just select units individual and fire them one by one if I wanted to cause disruption? RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Compass Rose - 10-10-2013 Pewpewchewchew I am not sure if you are aware of the below linked thread which explains in great detail all of the optional rules and how they can affect a game. https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=47923 Also, do yourself a favor and make sure you try playing the PzC series against a real person via PBEM. If you catch the right kind of opponent who is willing to offer you help while you are learning the series, you will enjoy it so much you'll never think twice about playing the AI any more. Also, the PzC series is very art mod friendly and there are several really good art mods out there including ones for units, game maps, interface, etc, which can be found here: http://www.hist-sdc.com/MapMod/download.htm http://volcanomods.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=13&Itemid=27 http://tfe4.wordpress.com/graphics-and-sound-mods/panzer-campaigns-and-other-hps-titles/ If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask!  Good Luck! RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Ricky B - 10-10-2013 (10-10-2013, 01:02 PM)Pewpewchewchew Wrote: Thanks Foul. I have a third and hopefully final list of questions.Yes, ZOC is not blocked by hexside terrain such as rivers, so it will block across them. Quote:2. Does ZOC "go through" enemy formations when calculating isolation? So take for example an enemy unit is surrounded from all sides expect for one side which has a enemy unit. I had a situation where I seemed to isolate a formation despite there being some troops adjacent to the force isolated. I didn't form a bubble around both units, I simply moved to surround the one unit with ZOC.An enemy unit will keep open a supply line. If you managed to get isolation in the situation you describe there must have been another reason it was blocked. for example, terrain such as an unbridged river will block supply and lead to isolation. Quote:3. Is isolation an immediate process or do I have to wait a turn for it to show up?Isolation will not show up until the next turn - that status is determined at the start of a friendly turn only. This could also explain the isolation you saw in #2 - if the enemy unit moved to open a supply route during the enemy turn, the isolated unit will still show as isolated in your turn. Quote:4. Likewise, can I somehow manually refresh the spotting of enemy formations? If I can move one troop to a high ground position and have LOS over a chunk of the battle, is there any way I can save the remaining movement points rather than let them go to waste and end the turn? Quote:5. In the manual it states that disruption is calculated by a random dice roll compared to the morale of the defending unit. If this is the case, wouldn't it be better to just select units individual and fire them one by one if I wanted to cause disruption?If I understand your question, firing a single unit at a time will allow you to target undisrupted units with each shot - whereas firing a stack all at once will be all at one unit and thus might disrupt the target with the first shot, and so the others will be at a disrupted unit. There is no way to tell which shot caused the disruption (each is calculated separately by the engine) in norm play, but you can basically figure that any one shot could cause disruption but by firing the stack all units fired anyway, and thus possibly wasted shots. Rick RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Liebchen - 10-12-2013 You asked: 5. Does terrain effect the attacker at all? If I shoot from the high ground would it do more damage than being level or below a enemy formation? During an assault (not fire), the attacker gains the benefits of the defender's terrain, since the assault is understood to be occurring in their hex. -------- You asked: 7. Besides a reduction in fire & LOS, what else does elevation do? With regard to LOS, being on a higher elevation does allow a unit to see over many obstacles - including other units. -------- You asked: 5. I see that some tank formations are able to shoot from more than one hex away. How big is the drop in effectiveness? The amount that fire effectiveness is reduced is defined for each scenario in the parameter table (hit "F4" to see it). It is often something like 1/2 or 1/3 effective, but don't hold me to it, because scenario designers do what they feel fits best for the scenario. ---------- You asked: 1. Does ZOC extent hex bordering terrain? Like rivers, streams and embankments and stuff. Consider ZOC to be a product of the units' fire effectiveness, as well as possibly patrols. -------- You asked: 4. Likewise, can I somehow manually refresh the spotting of enemy formations? If I can move one troop to a high ground position and have LOS over a chunk of the battle, is there any way I can save the remaining movement points rather than let them go to waste and end the turn? Some units are "recon" units. You may spend 1/3 of their MP on a spotting action. You'll find this command in the "Command" menu, if you've highlighted the unit. Use this, and there is a "chance" that enemy units within LOS of the recon unit will be spotted. Sometimes they're identified and sometimes they're mystery units. And sometimes they're not shown, too. ---- You really ought to take the time to read the user manual. Hit "f2" to get it. It's very well laid out, has searchability, and I find myself looking at it for refreshers often enough, even after 15 years of play. I'm not saying that you haven't read it, only that it is always worth re-reviewing. RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Pewpewchewchew - 10-15-2013 How am I supposed to deal with this? http://imgur.com/6QEZAh6 I'm playing the alt version of the Sicily's highest city scenario and this happened. The bunker tile I have selected worth 300VP is withstanding assault after assault despite the fact that I'm throwing literally thousands of men at it. At first those infantry units weren't even in it. It was just the AT gun with less than ten guns. RE: Some beginner questions on attacking and assualting. - Liebchen - 10-15-2013 When I'm assaulting hardpoints, you need to winkle them out of their cover. I like to give the garrisons an escape route. Sometimes they take it, and then I've got them. This doesn't mean that you don't have them isolated. That's crucial. Just give them a non-ZOC hex to "escape" to when the going gets too rough for them. Then keep assaulting. Even if you don't disrupt them, you're giving them lots of fatigue. If you outnumber them sufficiently, you'll get them eventually. |
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