Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Parade Ground (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Forum: Historical Discussion (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=17) +--- Thread: Israeli Order of Battle questions? (/showthread.php?tid=67783)

Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Jim von Krieg - 03-17-2015 Do we have any experts on Israeli military in our ranks? I'm reading a lot on the Yom Kippur War to support scenario development for an expansion of the Campaign Series. I've run into a few intriguing items that I would like to develop further, but can't seem to find anything definitive on them. 1) Home Guard: Does anyone know anything about the Home Guard in the Golan. I'm reading an account of 10 Super Shermans of the Home Guard supporting one of the bunkers along the Syrian border during the 6/7 Oct 1973 fighting. I would like to see if there is more out there concerning the deployment and utilization of the Home Guard during the war. 2) Tank Turrets as part of the Israeli bunker system: I'm going through some photos linked to Google Earth and I stumbled across a series of Patton turrets w/L7 105mm guns in what appears to be a defensive line just north of Tel Hermonet (northern shoulder of the Valley of Tears). I'm looking for any information on Israeli bunkers and if they actually used the turrets as defensive elements in 1973 along the Golan. 3) Israeli Anti-tank capability: Beyond LAWs and Bazookas, what did the Israeli infantry use as anti-tank weapons in 1973? I have a couple more books coming my way on the Israeli Army, but even the very good stuff I have now doesn't really delve into the weeds to the degree I would like. Thanks for taking your time to read this. Regards, Jim vK RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Ricky B - 03-18-2015 Hi Jim, I don't have much detail regarding your questions, at least not handy. The only piece I found so far was regarding Israeli infantry AT weaponry, which appears to have been very limited. There appear to have been only 20 or so LAWs fired, although a few sources indicate a few more than that. They had also bought some French SS-11s and Cobra ATGM but did not use them, deciding it was too difficult to train their citizen soldiers to use them effectively (whereas the Egyptians set up extensive training programs prior to the war). Finally, some TOWs were deployed late during the war, achieving 9 kills in approximately 20 shots. Rick RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Jim von Krieg - 03-20-2015 Thanks Ricky, I'm thinking most of the books written on the Golan are from the armor officers with little from the infantry officers. Bazookas and LAWs with a dash of Recoilless Rifles seems to be the mix. Some of the reading indicates they spent all their defense dollars prior to the war on upgrading the tanks which left little for the infantry. Also, their doctrine emphasized the Armored Corps at the expense of infantry and artillery. I'm finding that there aren't the great OBs I'm used to from WW2 readily available. Or at least, I haven't found them yet. I have a couple of books on the Israeli Army in the mail, so maybe it will answer my question. As to the other answers, I'm leaning to the tank turrets being a post '73 addition to the defenses. I found a very good description of the Golan defense barrier and it seems more extensive than is generally realized. Describes hundreds of observation and fighting bunkers with wire and extensive mine fields. Also, the mines were on both sides of the anti-tank trench that ran along the Purple Line. It answer my question as to why the Syrians got hung up on the trenches for so long because their Engineers assets were in the rear with the gear. For the Home Guard, I'm thinking this is an interchangeable term for Reservist units used by the active duty officers that tended to write the histories of the fighting. I've only seen it referenced as Home Guard once in my reading, but I wanted to run it to ground to determine if there was a specific group outside the Reserves as I understand them for the Israelis. Does not seem to be the case at the moment. Respectfully, Jim RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Aces8 - 03-22-2015 The Kibbutz communities here in the south have a sort of "Home Guard" Defense group made up of local volunteers. My wife knows the name in Hebrew (Sorry I'm still learning the language) I can't remember the exact name. RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Outlaw Josey Wales - 03-23-2015 In The Military Balance 1987-1988, it refers to reserves, Army, Navy and Air Force, complete establishments, including HQs. Others, such as Nahal (Noar Halutzi Lohen = Pioneer Fighting Youth) act as a Home Guard. Their Para-Military includes Border Guards, Arab Militia, Coastguard and Gadna (youth bns), which are volunteers 15-18, pre-military service training by Defense Force. RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - PoorOldSpike - 03-24-2015 The Israeli infantry had Cobra ATGM's (not to be confused with Cobra helis), and they had TOWs mounted on M-113 APCs, and SS-11's mounted on M3 halftracks. The Arab infantry had Saggers, and Saggers mounted on BRDM-1 vehicles. They're in the counter mix of this classic Avalon Hill boardgame RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - PoorOldSpike - 03-25-2015 Here's an at-a-glance breakdown of the individual types. (note the game spans 1956-73, so units were in service at different times)- RE: Israeli Order of Battle questions? - Jim von Krieg - 05-12-2015 Thanks Spike... I used to have this game many, many, moons ago. Matches most of what I have. One thing to note is that the TOW is questionable in '73. It may or may not have been used depending on source used. One Israeli General reported its use late in the war by equipment received from airlift. Others say, they didn't get them until after the war. I find little reference to ATGMs used in '73 by Israel. Jim