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Axis - German Kampfgruppe Siebenburgen - Printable Version

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Axis - German Kampfgruppe Siebenburgen - SaSTrooP - 02-17-2021

[Image: fnPSqO9.png]

KAMPFGRUPPE SIEBENBURGEN
Task Force Transilvania
Direct Command of 8. Armee General der Infanterie Otto Wöhler

This unit is only losely covered in most of historical books. This is due to the fact it was organized on the spot and it in fact encompassed only one division with several weak units joining it, mostly coming from destroyed 6th Army during Jassy-Kischinev offensive.


RE: Axis - German Kampfgruppe Siebenburgen - SaSTrooP - 02-17-2021

[Image: qkVybR9.png]

8. SS-KAVALLERIE-DIVISION „FLORIAN GEYER“
8th Cavalry Division „Florian Geyer”
SS-Standartenführer Joachim Rumohr


Florian Geyer Division was in fact one and only proper SS cavalry formation. The other divisions were formed late and they were usually heavily understrength. The division itself recruited not only from the Germans proper, but also so called Volksdeutche – the Germans living nominally in different countries. In case of Florian Geyer, these were mostly Hungarian and Romanian Germans, including transilvanian residents. The division formed the core – and was pretty much the only valuable unit – of so called Gruppe Siebenburgen (The Transilvania Group) operating under 8th Army Wohler’s forces and it did support the Hungarians by opening the other axis of attack on Turda.
Note: detailed ORBAT of 8th SS Cavalry is super hard to get. For this reason, Wehrmacht Cavalry Regiment structure was used as an ersatz solution. For example, many itnernet sources list SS Ski Battalion within its structure, whole none of four SS ski battalions were ever considered even close to that division (even though two were recruited from Hungarian Germans).



ENTIRE DIVISION ARRIVES AT DAY 3 ON THE ROAD BETWEEN PRAID AND IOSENI (ABOUT 8 HEXES RIGHT OF TARGU MURES)


SS-Kavallerie-Regiment 15:

I/Kav-Regiment 15:
1x Unbrittn Kav Kp or Kav Kp SS (depending if using mounted or dismounted)
1x Inf Btl SS s Kp (MG42 HMG (2))
3x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for battalion heavy weapons)

II/Kav-Regiment 15:
1x Unbrittn Kav Kp or Kav Kp SS (depending if using mounted or dismounted)
1x Unbrittn Kav Kp or Kav Kp SS (depending if using mounted or dismounted) (-1 platoon)

III (Sw)/ Kav-Regiment 15:
1x Panzer Kp /10 (PzKw III M) (-2 platoons)
1x Pioneer Kp SS (MG-34 MMG (2)) (-1 platoon)
1x Transport Kp (Opel) (serves as transport for Pioneer)
1x Flak Batterie (2cm Flak 30) (-2 guns)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Flak Batterie)

Regimental Units:
1x Artillerie VB/T (Kettenkrad)
1x Panzerspaeh Trp (Kfz 222)
1x Pioneer Zug SS
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Pioneer Zug)
3x PzVern Trp SS (Panzerschreck)
1x Kav Transp Zug (server as transport for PzVernichtungs Zug)
1x PzB Zug
1x Kav Transp Zug (server as transport for PzB Zug)
1x Flak Batterie (2cm Flak 30)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Flak Batterie)
1x Captured 81mm mortar section (from the Romanians)
1x Captured Bofors 37mm AT gun section (from the Romanians)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitionswagen)
3x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as general transport reserve) (incl. one captured)


SS-Kavallerie-Regiment 16:
- WARNING VERGE OF COLLAPSE DUE TO STAGGERING LOSSES


I/Kav-Regiment 16:
AMALGAMATED WITH II ABT

II/Kav-Regiment 16:
2x Unbrittn Kav Zug or Kav Zug SS (depending if using mounted or dismounted)
1x Inf Btl SS s Kp (MG42 HMG (2))
1x Inf Btl SS s Kp (MG42 HMG (2)) (-1 MG platoon)
6x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for battalion heavy weapons)

III (Sw)/ Kav-Regiment 16:
1x Panzer Zug 3 vehicles (PzKw III M)
1x Pioneer Kp SS (MG-34 MMG (2)) (-2 platoons)
1x Transport Kp (Opel) (serves as transport for Pioneer)
1x Flak Batterie (2cm Flak 30)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Flak Batterie)

Regimental Units:
1x Pioneer Zug SS
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Pioneer Zug)
4x PzVern Trp SS (Panzerschreck)
1x Kav Transp Zug (server as transport for PzVernichtungs Zug)
1x PzB Zug
1x Kav Transp Zug (server as transport for PzB Zug)
1x Flak Batterie (2cm Flak 30)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Flak Batterie)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitionswagen)
2x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as general transport reserve)


SS-Kavallerie-Regiment 18:
- WARNING VERGE OF COLLAPSE DUE TO STAGGERING LOSSES


I/Kav-Regiment 18:
DESTROYED

II/Kav-Regiment 18:
1x Unbrittn Kav Kp or Kav Kp SS (depending if using mounted or dismounted) -1 platoon
1x Inf Btl SS s Kp (MG42 HMG (2))
2x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for battalion heavy weapons) (losses)

III (Sw)/ Kav-Regiment 18:
1x Captured Pz Kom (Pz T34c 747®) (-2 platoons) 4 tanks left
1x Pioneer Kp SS (MG-34 MMG (2)) (-1 platoon)
1x Transport Kp (Opel) (serves as transport for Pioneer) -1 platoon)

Regimental Units:
1x Pioneer Zug SS
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Pioneer Zug)
1x Kav Transp Zug (server as transport for PzVernichtungs Zug)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Flak Batterie)
4x MunitionsTransp (Munitionswagen)
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as general transport reserve)
1x 60mm mortar (captured)

SS-Artillerie-Regiment 8:

I Abt. (le)/Art.-Regiment 8:
1x Art. Btr (besp) (7.5cm leFK 18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (7.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (7.5cm leFK 18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (7.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (7.5cm leFK 18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (7.5cm Batterie)
1x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

II Abt./Art.-Regiment 8:
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

III Abt./Art.-Regiment 8:
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Steyr RSO) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)


SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 8: (heavy losses)
1x KradschutzenKom (MG34 MMG) (-2 platoons)
1x Fahrrad Ko (MG34 MMG (2)) (-2 platoons)
1x PG s Kp SS mot (Opel, 7.5cm LeIG18, 4.7cm PaK 177i)


SS-Radfahr-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 8:
1x Fahrrad Ko (MG37(t) MMG (1))
1x Fahrrad Ko (MG37(t) MMG (1))
1x PG s Kp SS mot (Opel, 7.5cm LeIG18, 4.7cm PaK 183f)


SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 8:
1x JagdPz Kp /9 (Jpz38(t) Hetzer)
1x JagdPz Kp /9 (Jpz38(t) Hetzer) -1 Hetzer platoons
1x Captured T-34/85 section (2 vehicles)
1x PaK Zug mot SS (7.5cm PaK40)
1x PaK Zug mot SS (7.5cm PaK40)
1x PaK Zug mot SS (7.6cm PaK36®)
1x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)


SS-Flak-Abteilung 8:

I (Sw) Batterie:
1x sw PaK Zug (M) (FlaK 36, Sdkfz 8)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Opel)

II (Sw) Batterie:
1x sw PaK Zug (M) (FlaK 36, Sdkfz 8)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Opel)

III (SP) Batterie:
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 6/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 6/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)

IV (SP) Batterie:
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 6/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 6/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 36, Opel)


SS-Sturmgeschütz Abteilung 8:
1x StuG Btr /10* (StuG III Ausf. G, StuH 42 Ausf. G)
1x StuG Btr /10* (StuG III Ausf. G, StuH 42 Ausf. G) (-1 platoon)


SS-Pionier-Bataillon 8:
1x Pioneer Kp SS (MG37(t))
1x Pioneer Kp SS (MG37(t))
4x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for 1st Pioneer Kp)
4x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for 2nd Pioneer Kp)
4x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for 3rd Pioneer Kp)


Divisional Units:
2x Artillerie VB/T (Kfz 69 Protze)
2x Artillerie VB (Schwimmwagen)
1x Ost Cav Sqdn
2x PzZerstorer Grp
1x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as transport for Panzerzerstorer)
2x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 10/4 Flak)
4x Pferdwagen Zug (serves as general reserve of transportation)
(note: pretty much everything of above represents the Stabswache Kompanie, or Division HQ Escort Company that – as one can see – what quite differenciated)

RE: Axis - German Kampfgruppe Siebenburgen - SaSTrooP - 02-17-2021

[Image: 0jbotoN.png]

GRUPPE SIEBENBURGENS AD HOC BEFESTIGTE RESTEN
Gruppe Siebenburgen’s Ad Hoc Attached Remnants
Various, non-identifiable commanders


As it was said above, Gruppe Siebenburgen was generally improvised from the start. At first, only the 8th Cavalry and 23rd Panzer were direct-access reinforcements of Heeresgruppe Sud after the disastrous collapse of 8th and 6th Armies during Jassy-Kischinev offensive in August 1944. However, remnants were making their way from pockets, attempted to avoid the Soviet forces and reach friendly lines. Most of these troops then supported the bulk of 8th Army in Northern Transilvania on the Arpad Line, where they could receive refitt and reinforcements with relative ease. This formation represents somewhat fictional (details are scarce) elements of various units that made their way to the southern Transilvania and supported the left flank of Hungaro-German attack there on Turda.
Note: the 10th Panzergrenadier Division emblem is put here only for increased visualisation.


THIS UNIT BEGINS SCATTERED
EACH UNIT IS EQUIPPED FOR 5 DAYS LONG SUPPLY RESERVE



Die Uberreste des 13. Panzer Division (begins at secondary road between Medias and Pelisor (nearly perfect map centre):
1x Panzer Kp /10 (PzKw IV H)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (MG42 HMG (2))
1x Ost Inf Kp (MG37(t)) (-1 platoon)

Die Uberreste des 10. Panzergrenadier Division (begins around Batani Marii, on the right edge of the map, roughly central area):
1x StuH Zug /4 (Sturmpanzer IV)
1x Ostpanzer Zug (PzKW T70 743®)
1x Sturmpioneer Kp (MG42 Grp MMG, 5cm PaK38)
1x PzGrKp gep (a) (MG42 MMG)

Die Uberreste des 306. Infanterie Division (begins at secondary road between villages of Mureni and Bunesti, about 9 hexer right of Medias in the centre):
1x  JagdPz Zug /4 (Jpz IV/70V)
1x Inf Kp (PzZ) (MG42 HMG (2))
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm K35(t), Schlepper UE)
1x Captured Soviet 57mm section (2 guns)

RE: Axis - German Kampfgruppe Siebenburgen - SaSTrooP - 02-17-2021

[Image: JLmj84O.png]

23. PANZERDIVISION
23rd Armoured Division
Generalleutnant Joseph von Radowitz

The 23rd were the firemen of the Heeresgruppe Sud for most of its existence. It fought mostly in Ukraine, like for example in Kharkov in 1942 – it was also the menace of the Soviets back in spring 1944, where this particular division was a forefront of German counterattack at Jassy which pretty much saved Romania for a time being and killed the Soviet hopes of reaching Bucharest in first part of year 1944. Note that this division was usually undermanned which is slightly shown here. Remember that also only one battalion of all four battalions were so called gepanzert – or mechanized, with rest of Panzergrenadiere serving on trucks as it should be.


Panzer-Regiment 23 (arrives peacemeal):

I Abt./23rd Panzer Regiment (arrives at random Day 16-20 [30% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):
1x Pz Kompanie /10 (Panther G) (Serves as combined battalion CO, recon platoon and escort platoon)
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (Panther G)
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (Panther G)
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (Panther G)
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (Panther G)
1x Pioneer Grp(gep)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 FlaK)

II Abt./23rd Panzer Regiment [u](arrives at random Day 16-20 [30% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):[/u]
1x Pz Kompanie /10 (PzKw IV J(+))) (Serves as combined battalion CO, recon plt and escort platoon)
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (PzKw IV J(+)))
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (PzKw IV J(+)))
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (PzKw IV J(+)))
1x Pz Kompanie /17 (PzKw IV J(+)))
1x Pioneer Grp(gep)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 FlaK)

Regimental Units (arrives with the first Abteilung that comes onto map):
1x Artillery VB (Sdkfz 223 Fu)
4x Flak (SP) Grp (Mobelwagen)
1x Panzer Zug/5 (PzKw IV H)
1x Panzer Gruppe (Panther G)


Panzergrenadier-Regiment 126 (arrives at random Day 17-22 [30% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):

I/PzGren Regiment 126:
1x PzGren Kp (gep) (Sdkfz 251 GrW, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (gep) (Sdkfz 251 GrW, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp*(gep) (Sdkfz 251 GrW, MG42 HMG) (note this company is slightly different)
1x PzGren Kp (sw)  (Sdkfz 251 GrW)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

II/PzGren Regiment 126:
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGr s Kp (mot) (Opel, 2cm Flak 30)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

Regimental Units:
1x Artillerie VB/T (Horch Kfz.70)
1x Artillerie VB (Kubelwagen VB)
1x IG (Sf) Zug (sIG33 Grille K)
1x Pioneer Zug (gep)
1x Pioneer Zug (gep)
1x Pioneer Zug (mot)
1x PaK Gruppe/M (7.5cm PaK40 or PaK40-CS)
6x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 11 Flak38)
3x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)


Panzergrenadier-Regiment 128 [b](arrives at random Day 17-22 [30% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):[/b]

I/PzGren Regiment 128:
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGr s Kp (mot) (Opel, 2cm Flak 30)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

II/PzGren Regiment 128:
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGren Kp (mot) (Opel, MG42 HMG)
1x PzGr s Kp (mot) (Opel, 2cm Flak 30)
2x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

Regimental Units:
1x Artillerie VB/T (Horch Kfz.70)
1x Artillerie VB (Kubelwagen VB)
1x IG (Sf) Zug (sIG33 Grille K)
1x Pioneer Zug (gep)
1x Pioneer Zug (mot)
1x Pioneer Zug (mot)
1x PaK Gruppe/M (7.5cm PaK40 or PaK40-CS)
6x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 11 Flak38)
3x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)


Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 128 [b](arrives at random Day 16-24 [25% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):[/b]

I Abt./PzArtillerie Regiment 128 (note it is divided into batteries for clarity):

I Batterie:
1x Artillerie VB (Kl PzBef Wg)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x MunitionsTransp (SdKfz 250/6)
(this makes total of 6 guns, the correct amount there should be in a single Batterie, contrary to SPWW2 data)

II Batterie:
1x Artillerie VB (Kl PzBef Wg)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18 Wespe)
1x MunitionsTransp (SdKfz 250/6)
(this makes total of 6 guns, the correct amount there should be in a single Batterie, contrary to SPWW2 data)

III Batterie:
1x Artillerie VB (Kl PzBef Wg)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18M Hummel)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18M Hummel)
1x PzArt (Sf) Zug (PzH 18M Hummel)
1x MunitionsTransp (SdKfz 250/6)
(this makes total of 6 guns, the correct amount there should be in a single Batterie, contrary to SPWW2 data)

II Abt./ PzArtillerie Regiment 128:
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Sdkfz 8) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Sdkfz 8) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Art. Btr (besp) (10.5cm leFH18, Sdkfz 8) or Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x MunitionsTransp (Munitions LKW)

III Abt./ PzArtillerie Regiment 128:
1x Artillerie Btr (10.5cm Batterie)
1x Mit Art Btr (15cm Batterie)
1x Mit Art Btr (15cm Batterie)


Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 23 ([b]arrives at random Day 14-16 [50% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):[/b]
1x StKp PzAufklAbt (Sdkfz 250/1, Sdkfz 250/9, Sdkfz 234/3)
1x KzAufklKp(Inf) (Sdkfz 250/2, Sdkfz 250/1)
1x PzGren Kp*(gep) (Sdkfz 251 GrW, MG42 HMG)
1x PzAufklKp (Sw) (SdKfz 250/8, Sdkfz 250/7)
1x PaK Gruppe/M (7.5cm PaK40 or PaK40-CS)
2x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 10/4 FlaK)


Panzerjäger-Abteilung 128 [b](arrives at random Day 17-24 [25% each day chance] around Gheorgheni):[/b]
1x JagdPz Kp /14 (JPz38(t) Hetzer)
1x JagdPz Kp /14 (Marder III M)
1x PaK Gruppe
1x PaK Gruppe
1x PaK Gruppe
1x PaK Gruppe
4x Transport Grp (Opel) (serves as transport for towed AT company)


Heeres-Flak-Artillerie-Abteilung 278 (arrives together with first Panzergrenadiere Regiment that comes onto map):

I (Sw) Batterie:
1x sw PaK Zug (M) (FlaK 36, Sdkfz 8)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Sdkfz3 Maultier)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Sdkfz3 Maultier)

II (Sw) Batterie:
1x sw PaK Zug (M) (FlaK 36, Sdkfz 8)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Sdkfz3 Maultier)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (2cm Flak 30, Sdkfz3 Maultier)

III (SP) Batterie:
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/2 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 7/1 Flak)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 43, Sdkfz3 Maultier)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 43, Sdkfz3 Maultier)
1x FlaK grp (mot) (3.7cm Flak 43, Sdkfz3 Maultier)


Panzer-Pionier-Bataillon 51 [b](arrives together with first Panzer Abteilung that comes onto map):[/b]
1x Pioneer Kp (MG34 HMG (2))
1x Pioneer Kp (MG34 HMG (2))
1x Pioneer Kp (MG34 HMG (1))* (note the neccessary single MG)
4x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as motorization for 1st PioKp)
4x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as motorization for 2nd PioKp)
5x Sdkfz 25/1 Zug (serves as motorization for 3rd PioKp which was armoured, note that you HAVE to buy only singular MG, because mortar and MG must drive the same vehicle or they will not fit!)


Divisional Units ([b]arrives together with second Panzergrenadiere Regiment that comes onto map):[/b]
3x Artillerie VB/T (Kfz 69 Protze)
3x Artillerie VB (Schwimmwagen)
1x PzGren Zug (mot) (Opel)
1x Kradschutzen Zug
1x Brandenburg Zug
1x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for Brandenburger)
2x PzZerstorer Grp
1x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for Panzerzerstorer)
1x Ost Inf Zug (M) (MG34) (represents the overal Hiwi [eastern labour volunteers] in the division)
1x Transport Zug (Opel) (serves as transport for Osttruppen)
2x Flak (SP) Grp (Sdkfz 10/4 Flak)
(note: pretty much everything of above represents the Stabswache Kompanie, or Division HQ Escort Company that – as one can see – what quite differenciated)
(note 2: Brandenburger are added without historical sources: many divisions had them attached constantly, but they rarely appeared on official tables)