(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.

The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.

Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.

Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.

Rick

(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.

The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.

Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.

Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.

Rick

(12-17-2021, 04:39 PM)Dreamslayer_spb Wrote:

(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.

The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.

Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.

Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.

Rick

I'm about infantry units that have 100%.
E.g. Stalingrad'42 scenario 23 July, there are some fresh formed Soviet Rifle divisions that have Rifle battalions (305 men 100%) at start. Now I look on official TOE and there is number 709 men total.
So I need to count only elements like rifle squads, MG squads, AT squads? What about commanders of various levels, their assistants/deputies?

(12-17-2021, 10:30 PM)Strela Wrote:

(12-17-2021, 04:39 PM)Dreamslayer_spb Wrote:

(12-17-2021, 02:55 PM)Ricky B Wrote: You may need to be more specific as to what you are seeing and questioning.

The various games may have units that start with the approximate TOE for that unit size, and then the unit is weakened to what records show it had at the start of the scenario, or at least an estimated average. More common is the units start at whatever strength they had at the start of the overall battle, or again more likely an average for a division, or the entire army.

Then there is the impact of crew served weapons and how they are represented in the specific game.

Either way, the strength is generally just the combat arms - so mechanics, logistics, etc aren't represented at all, unless the unit formed a combat force in the battle.

Rick

I'm about infantry units that have 100%.
E.g. Stalingrad'42 scenario 23 July, there are some fresh formed Soviet Rifle divisions that have Rifle battalions (305 men 100%) at start. Now I look on official TOE and there is number 709 men total.
So I need to count only elements like rifle squads, MG squads, AT squads? What about commanders of various levels, their assistants/deputies?

Hi there,

You can't look at strengths in game that way unfortunately.

We do start with the TOE and as Rick suggests remove the non-combat troops. These are usually grouped in the HQ companies. The next step is the most important. We normally look at the highest strength of the units during the period simulated and set that usually as the upper limit (100%) of a unit. Why? Because the recovery mechanism in game will add men until the in game strength is reached. I had the issue when I created Moscow '42 of putting all units in at full TO&E and that resulted in the German battalions recovering from 240 men to 900 men battalions in the quiet sectors. This was a-historic and resulted in the Germans having many more men than they should have. A subsequent patch reduced the upper limit for each unit to 400 men. You would be unable to reconcile that number to the TO&E.

I hope that explains a little more.

David

(12-18-2021, 10:39 PM)Strela Wrote: That's my point, 100% in game does not mean 100% of TO&E. In games terms this is the highest value a unit can attain and rarely does any unit start off at TO&E strength unless it is a new reinforcement that has not been rushed to the front. In Stalingrad, many Soviet units were ad-hoc and rushed into position and will rarely if ever be full TO&E.