Smoke!!!

[gabeeg]

So I am looking for advice here....and whining a little.

I am a newb (yes I am signed up for the bootcamp tournament!). I am playing my second PBEM game ever and getting my but handing to me for the second time. My biggest frustration is handling smoke...specifically my opponents use of smoke. For example I have setup two zones that I thought I had a great ambush setup. One in particular was ideal as the terrain forced the attacker to be at least 2 turns in the open. I had units set...unmoving and waiting. But what happened was my opponent did a lot of suppression on my units, then moved and popped smoke. He did this repeatedly and next thing I know I am on my heals. First I am a newb so really did not handle this well and made mistakes (unsupported tanks, units too thin in places and a poor plan (really...too many plans). But even still the suppress, and then pop smoke seems an overly powerful tactic to me. Op fire is ok but not that effective, but by the time it is my turn I know there is a ton of soft and hard targets right in front of my tanks...but I am powerless...almost, to stop it. In WinSPww2 it seems like smoke is like a wall of cover, you can only z-fire blindly...and ineffectively into it. What do you guys think? How do you all handle smoke? I am pretty sure probably 50% of my problem is lack of experience...maybe with some eductation it will not seem as unbalanced to me. Right now my battle map is covered in smoke where he is advancing in open terrain...I seldom get a clear shot at my opponent (good job by him!).

My opponents has given me a ton of great feedback and advice, but in this case I want to get other points of view as well...in case there is more ways to skin a cat ;) (and maybe I can give him a surprise before he wipes me off the board).

P.S. For Op-fire, do I need to retain some unused shots after my turn for op-fire to happen...seems so, but I am unclear?

[Imp]

In WinSPww2 it seems like smoke is like a wall of cover

That is after all its purpose so yes it is, a very powerful tool if used correctly. Like most things there are no hard & fast rules to cover it you have to decide what to do based on the situation. I have just used it firstly to screen me from pesky sniper & MG fire & secondly to let me get close enough unhampered to find them.
It is also very handy to get temporary force superiority, screen out half his force & attack the other half for example.

As you are playing someone who is willing to give you feedback I would ask if hes willing to do a rematch after or in a couple of games so you can try & put into practice what you have learnt.
Its probably the fastest way to learn & losing is not a problem so long as you learn something as it increases your chance of future victorys, or at least thats how it worked for me.
Ask him to tell you at the end of the game if he guessed you were there or has a scout or 2 out front watching you, if you moved there he might well have seen it.

You do not have to save shots for opfire but the more a unit fires the easier it is to see it.

[Walrus]

Hi Gabeeg

Your opponent seems to be aware of how to keep his force alive

Smoke use is crucial.
Be aware of your unit's ability to deploy smoke, or their ability to see through it (Vision 40 or more = thermal imaging, which 'sees' through smoke)...and also where possible, the abilities of your opponent's units.

When you are being attacked, popping a smoke grenade is a great way to cut down the LOS (Line Of Sight) of you opponent to you...perhaps meaning you can escape to cover, or just fight with one enemy, rather than three or five.

If you have to move over open ground, as your opponent did, then buying units than can provide smoke cover for those crucial 2 or 3 turns is very important.
Mortar units are great for this...small mortars 50, or 60mm are not great for killing troops but can save many lives with a good smoke screen eh. Often there are integrated with infantry units are are not included in any 'rules' for arty buys.

Remember, if you saw a perfect spot for an ambush...if your enemy is any good at all...then so did he :-) You cannot expect him to just hand you the game by walking into it now, can you?

Z-fire is indeed 'sprayed' around when it is used through smoke, but as long as the MGs or HE fire is getting close to troops, especially if they are moving fast out in the open (behind the smoke obviously), you may well be able to suppress them enough to stop their forward movement...then perhaps your opponent will run out of smoke ammo to cover them...and then it game will change.

One thing...there are players here who totally over use z-fire and IMO ruin the battle.
There are no 'rules' about this per-se...but I tend to make an agreement with my opponent that z-fire is to be kept to 'reasonable' levels.
IMO z-fire out beyond actual LOS (vision level for the actual battle) is very gamey. The player is then using 'eye-of-god' to know where enemy unitsd are and then (usually without any real ability to direct that fire by radio etc) shooting z-fire perfectly into troops concentrations that he could even see if there were no smoke (or trees, or buildings or hills etc).

I tend to restrict z-fire to area fire weapons like MGs and SP guns and try to limit the amount I use so it works tactically, but does not dominate the game.

Yes...you should always keep a few rounds in the weapon for op-fire during the opponent's half of the turn.
You unit will op-fire if you did shoot all your allowance during your phase of the turn, but the op-fire will be very limited.
It is always best, when expecting your unit to have to take fire in the next phase, to leave as many shots as you can for op-fire.

Also, it seems to me that op-fire is often more dangerous and casualty-causing than standard direct fire. That is just a feeling I get though, no data on that

Anyway...learn to use smoke to cover your advance...that's why it is included the game. Then learn to deal with it's use by you opponent.
It is not gamey...it is very normal behavior, both in the SP game and as far as I am aware in real life warfare as well.

Good luck!!

walrus

[low_bidder]

Attack! That smoke works both ways.
Make a best guess as to if he has seen you or not. It's hard to do for new guys, but a rule of thumb is the difference in Experience levels, range and the size of your vehicles. More often then not you'll have to guess at the range, since you will just have a rough idea of where he is.
Range works in sections. < 4 hexes, 4 to 8 hexes, 8 to 12 hexes and under 20 hexes. At 20+ hexes in a < size 5 vehicle and exper levels within 10 points of your opponent, you prolly aren't going to be seen . Inside 4 hexes anything other then a zero sized unit will be seen. Between 4 and 20 hexes, size and experience become important. I'm assuming you are in a ready status.
If you think he has seen you move a hex or so. 1 hex gets you the moving target bonus without the big penalty as a moving shooter. If you have a good FC ( 25+ or so) you can add 1 hex, if you have a stabilizer add another 1. That means you can move 3 hexes or so and still fire with accuracy. Not like sitting still but good enough. What you are doing is making him think and getting a better shot when he comes out of the smoke. Remember, if he HAS seen you and you move, your units will disappear on his map. That will make him wonder what you are up to. As the great Kahn used to say; 'Confusion to your enemy'.
If you don't think he sees you, hug the smoke with the goal of popping thru it next turn, shooting and popping back. Sort of a jack-in-the-box tactic or what is also called king of the hill, when done over a hill.
'Course he could be laying smoke just to see if you will try something clever.
Some of these old gits are just to sneaky!

[Walrus]

10 points for this

Attack! That smoke works both ways.

...and 100 points for quoting Genghis (or Kublai perhaps)

As the great Khan used to say; 'Confusion to your enemy'

Great point here...

Remember, if he HAS seen you and you move, your units will disappear on his map. That will make him wonder what you are up to

So...that's 110 points for Low Bidder...if you can get to Australia, I will redeem them at the going rate of 1 million points per dollar

Hurrah!

[Vesku]

I often use artillery behind smoke screens and more so if I know there are troops moving behind it. A flamer with two hex range is a killer against smoke screener. Flanking the screen forces more use of smoke thus exhausting the supply faster.

[Imp]

Walrus wrote

Yes...you should always keep a few rounds in the weapon for op-fire during the opponent's half of the turn.
You unit will op-fire if you did shoot all your allowance during your phase of the turn, but the op-fire will be very limited.
It is always best, when expecting your unit to have to take fire in the next phase, to leave as many shots as you can for op-fire.

I think we are talking about diffrent games here op fire isone of the main diffrences between the games.
WAW from memory works something like this plus gaining extra shots at theexpense of suppresion.

WW2, MBT do not its your opponents turn so you get shots you would have. Therefore the only thing that effects how many shots you opfire is your suppresion state & move status.
Its also the only way to gain extra shots of sorts.
If somebody does something good like killing something nearby your suppresion lifts slightly, if its by enough to regain the missing shots due to being suppressed you can go Gung Ho & sort of get an extra one.
The number of shots you took in your turn plays no part at all
Correct me if I am wrong but dont want to mislead gabeeg

[low_bidder]

Next time I'm in OZ, I want a REAL Fosters. You can show me a nice bar where I can get one. For those of you that have never been to Oz, a nice bar is one where they let you take off your glasses and remove your false teeth before they punch you in the face. My kind of place.

Imp, AFAIK, you sort of get another shot for op fire. I say sort of because it depends on what you mean by turn. A game turn has BOTH players movement (action would be a better word, since firing takes place during this part of the active player's phase) phase, rally phase, Arty phase, etc.
Not in that order, of course. So if you have 4 shots and shoot them all, then you get another shot for your opponents action phase to use as op fire. If you use 3 shots, you have 2 for op fire. I'm not sure if you get more then 1 extra. I count shots because I use a lot of soak off tactics and it seems to me that once in a while, my target gets an extra shot. Or I'm counting wrong. My math skills aren't what they were 50 years ago. Nothing else is either come to think of it.

To out of the box it, your shot counter is always 1 less then that unit has available.. That is because that extra shot is for the program and you can't have/use it.

[Imp]

Was on a boat called Gloria Spear as in beer a few days back would that do. Big bar & even a fridge by the bed, in fact fridges everywhere never more than about 8 feet from a chilled one.
That do you.

Just did a test in MBT
2 Aus squads with TI behind a smoke screen who remained stationary.
A horde of advancing troops who moved to triger op fire for 4 turns.
The first 2 turns Aus Squads did nothing in their turn, the last 2 they Z fired all shots away.
The result
Every turn both squads opfired 6 times regardless which coincidentally is the number of shots they have as Exp was 80 or so.

Conclusion
As suspected they operate exactly the same regardless of whos turn it is. The only reason they might appear to opfire less if they fire is because doing so caused them to take fire & they carried some suppresion into the other players turn.

[gabeeg]

Great info, Thanks Gents! So, it boils down to learning tactics and especially the system better on my end when dealing with smoke. My opponent has been extremely helpful and informative (he gives me his password so that I can look at his unit dispositions and tactics, explains what he is doing, etc.). Wanted to ask on the board because everyone has different views of the same picture so-to-speak and I am glad I did.

Really clears up op fire for me also.

excited to see what I can do in the bootcampers tournament!