Low cost of german arty

[Cross]

Hi Gunslngr,

I don’t think it matters if the Germans have 4000 or 400 points for arty, as long as the Soviets get the same. If the Germans buy a lot of SP-guns the Soviets should be able to purchase artillery just as powerful and with more ammo. I suspect the problem is tactics not equipment.

The Germans definitely have the better SP-guns, but the Soviets should lean on their equipment and units which are cheap and abundant, and use tactics that favour the Soviet force composition.


I think the Weasel and Walrus arty system had the right idea, but personally I think it’s too complicated. I prefer the KISS approach.

I agree that one FOO/CO per gun battery or mortar platoon is realistic, but to only allow each battery or platoon to plot on one hex is unrealistic. IRL a FOO would have the battery guns fire in lines or other patterns. Each gun would often be aimed at a point up to 150yds (3 hexes) away from the next gun in the troop.

A more realistic solution may be to allow each gun/mortar in a battery/platoon to have different plots, but each gun/mortar must be plotted within 150yds of any other gun/mortar in the battery/platoon. This would allow batteries to plot their guns in a line, which was more common than a stonk (attacking one spot with every gun); or you could plot guns in a circle for a less concentrated barrage, which was another realistic practice.


Heavy arty may have been regimental, but if you bought heavy (regimental/divisional) artillery - and have the FOO in your battalion – ‘regimental’ arty is on call.

I think historically, a battalion would typically have one battery in support, but this could obviously be less or more depending on the circumstances. I find that 10% does allow a battalion to purchase about one battery plus a few mortars.

The two most common ways I use arty is to plot a rough line just in front of my advancing troops, and/or plot a line on top of the enemy advance. The third use would be targeting enemy artillery.


One final thought: I wonder if SP-guns (and all artillery) should have an additional 'wait time' penalty after moving?

They already get about 3 turns, which is a lot in a 20 turn battle. But it's a bit odd that the penalty is the same for switching targets, as it is for setting up after moving. It seems like there should be additional penalty for moving, over and above the penalty of re-plotting to another sector of the map.

[GUNSLNGR]

Hi Gunslngr,

I don’t think it matters if the Germans have 4000 or 400 points for arty, as long as the Soviets get the same. If the Germans buy a lot of SP-guns the Soviets should be able to purchase artillery just as powerful and with more ammo. I suspect the problem is tactics not equipment.

The Germans definitely have the better SP-guns, but the Soviets should lean on their equipment and units which are cheap and abundant, and use tactics that favour the Soviet force composition.


I think the Weasel and Walrus arty system had the right idea, but personally I think it’s too complicated. I prefer the KISS approach.

I agree that one FOO/CO per gun battery or mortar platoon is realistic, but to only allow each battery or platoon to plot on one hex is unrealistic. IRL a FOO would have the battery guns fire in lines or other patterns. Each gun would often be aimed at a point up to 150yds (3 hexes) away from the next gun in the troop.

A more realistic solution may be to allow each gun/mortar in a battery/platoon to have different plots, but each gun/mortar must be plotted within 150yds of any other gun/mortar in the battery/platoon. This would allow batteries to plot their guns in a line, which was more common than a stonk (attacking one spot with every gun); or you could plot guns in a circle for a less concentrated barrage, which was another realistic practice.


Heavy arty may have been regimental, but if you bought heavy (regimental/divisional) artillery - and have the FOO in your battalion – ‘regimental’ arty is on call.

I think historically, a battalion would typically have one battery in support, but this could obviously be less or more depending on the circumstances. I find that 10% does allow a battalion to purchase about one battery plus a few mortars.

The two most common ways I use arty is to plot a rough line just in front of my advancing troops, and/or plot a line on top of the enemy advance. The third use would be targeting enemy artillery.


One final thought: I wonder if SP-guns (and all artillery) should have an additional 'wait time' penalty after moving?

They already get about 3 turns, which is a lot in a 20 turn battle. But it's a bit odd that the penalty is the same for switching targets, as it is for setting up after moving. It seems like there should be additional penalty for moving, over and above the penalty of re-plotting to another sector of the map.

Hey Cross,

I'm in agreement on all that - particularly the limiting of targeting by battery/platoon. Which goes to my point of how arty is used vs. how much you have. I believe that any system that attempts to set some historically accurate parameters for artillery use will have to mainly address how it used first and numbers second. I believe JP's problem with the cheapness of German SP guns and arty, compared to Russia, was that at that time in the war Germany should not be able to compete roughly 1 for 1 with Russia in the area of artillery. Believe me...he's got the tactics part down fine.

BTW - JP adroitly pointed out that our game was 15000 not 40000...but I assured him I didn't have 4000 in arty.:whis:

[Gila]

One final thought: I wonder if SP-guns (and all artillery) should have an additional 'wait time' penalty after moving?

Do you mean a 2 turn penalty which makes them useless 2 turns after moving?

SP arty already get a penalty when moving as they can't fire until stationary same with gun crews don't know why that should be changed maybe i'm confused:rolleyes:.

[Cross]

Hi Gila,

I’m sorry, I probably didn’t explain myself clearly.

Let’s say we have a platoon of mortars and a platoon of SP-guns. The mortars have been stationary since the start of the battle. The SP-guns are moving forward and have been for several turns.

Then at the start of the next turn the FOO spots enemy infantry advancing, and decides to call on both artillery platoons to hit them.

Although the SP-guns had moved last turn, they haven’t yet been moved this turn, so the wait time for the stationary mortars and the SP-guns is the same.

This is unrealistic because IRL arty requires a setup time after moving. When firing indirect, it’s not enough to know where the target is, you also have to know exactly where you are, and orient your guns.

The stationary mortars would be all set up and ready to plot a new target. The new target would correctly take a couple of turns to acquire.
The SP-guns have far more work to do, they first have to establish where they are, create an aiming point and orient their guns, and then they have to acquire the new target. (This is my rough understanding)

In Steel Panthers, when infantry move quickly there’s a moving fast flag set that doesn’t allow them to take full advantage of cover even if stationary in the next turn. I’m suggesting it would be more realistic to use something like that for SP-guns, where if they moved on a previous turn, they don’t just get the same delay as an arty unit that’s been stationary for some time.

I hope that’s a bit more clear

[Greybeard]

Hi Gila,

I’m sorry, I probably didn’t explain myself clearly.

Let’s say we have a platoon of mortars and a platoon of SP-guns. The mortars have been stationary since the start of the battle. The SP-guns are moving forward and have been for several turns.

Then at the start of the next turn the FOO spots enemy infantry advancing, and decides to call on both artillery platoons to hit them.

Although the SP-guns had moved last turn, they haven’t yet been moved this turn, so the wait time for the stationary mortars and the SP-guns is the same.

This is unrealistic because IRL arty requires a setup time after moving. When firing indirect, it’s not enough to know where the target is, you also have to know exactly where you are, and orient your guns.

The stationary mortars would be all set up and ready to plot a new target. The new target would correctly take a couple of turns to acquire.
The SP-guns have far more work to do, they first have to establish where they are, create an aiming point and orient their guns, and then they have to acquire the new target. (This is my rough understanding)

In Steel Panthers, when infantry move quickly there’s a moving fast flag set that doesn’t allow them to take full advantage of cover even if stationary in the next turn. I’m suggesting it would be more realistic to use something like that for SP-guns, where if they moved on a previous turn, they don’t just get the same delay as an arty unit that’s been stationary for some time.

I hope that’s a bit more clear

hey there.. one of the reasons I like the WW2 SP game is that you get GPS for mobile artillery years before it gets invented..:whis:

seriously though.. CAMO's artillery... IMHO a good compromise in a game situation.. far better than the 'instant' artillery found is SPWAW (which was a carry over from the SP-3 game engine)..

I think JP's original concern was 'how much' is available when a raw point percent is used.. can get to be so much that artillery smothers the game.. that's why it's important for players to experiment a little, and based upon those results more 'reasonable' artillery allocations can be decided upon..

regarding my earlier comments about a game in progress.. we have decided to toss this one into the 'draw' bag.. and hopefully have worked out some reasonable parameters for a follow-up game.. time will tell..

well.. reasonable artillery anyway.. how about an assault/defend game where the defender gets the same points (27,000) as the attacker?? my idea, I'm the attacker.. expect it to be a tough nut to crack.. call me stupid :)

Cheers!
Greybeard