Question on bunkers

[Vincent]

I recently played an EF scenario where there was a bunker in some rubble and by the end there was about 20 SP worth of Schutzen in it.

So I sieged this bunker for about 5+ turns and bombarded it over 20 times with tanks and 120mm mortars, but to no avail. It was completely surrounded and I far outnumbered the men in the bunker but never managed to take the objective point.

Are there any specific methods for bunker busting or are they just broken in this engine?

[Larry Reese]

Bunkers, particularly well sited ones, are very difficult to crack. Your enemy was made a mistake though, in overstacking in the bunker itself (over 12 SPs). That should have helped you some. I'm taking it you used a combination of direct fire and close assault in your attempts to take it, yes? With engineers and officers in particular included in the assaults, yes? In 5 turns, I'm not particularly surprised you could not take it.

There has been much discussion on this topic, but think the system works fine myself. These are not single bunkers (remember, we're talking 250 meter hexes here) and, if it is a pill box and is reinforced concrete, it is considered a hard target, like a tank. These are bunker/pill box complexes that are pretty tough nuts to crack; interlocking fields of fire, obstacles to getting in close, etc.... There are plenty of examples in WWII of bunkers holding out for days against assaults, etc.... My advice: unless you really need that hex (to move through, to stop LOS into your rear areas, it's a VP hex, etc...) bypass it. If you can't by pass, use rocket artillery and the heaviest tube artillery you have available (with the highest SP counts possible) to plaster it, then go in with engineers, infantry, and officers to make assaults. Be prepared for heavy casualties nonetheless. Also nice are using monster SP guns and heavy tanks (particularly IS-2, IS-3, IS(U)-152, etc..., in direct fire attacks on the bunker from one hex away. This can be quite effective at reducing them.

However, if you can, go around. Let the guys twiddle their thumbs and keep the place sufficiently invested that if they sally forth, you can bag them.

It also pays to realize sometimes too that older scenarios, when different assault rules made bunkers easier to bust, are not particularly balanced for the current rules and may be thrown off kilter by them.

Don't get disheartened.

LR

[Herr Straße Laufer]

There has been much discussion on this topic, but think the system works fine myself.
It also pays to realize sometimes too that older scenarios, when different assault rules made bunkers easier to bust, are not particularly balanced for the current rules and may be thrown off kilter by them.

Vincent wrote: "I sieged this bunker for about 5+ turns and bombarded it over 20 times with tanks and 120mm mortars

Are there any specific methods for bunker busting or are they just broken in this engine?"

Vincent I am not sure if you were using EA on or not. Either way bunkers are tough nuts to crack.
Larry gave the best advice. Plan to take it. Move units in that are effective against the "soft target" of a bunker (or hard target of a pillbox). Those Russian "monsters" work great in both to reduce or disrupt. With EA on there is not a guarantee that the disrupted units will "give up the ghost". With EA off any undisrupted units will prevent a successful assault.
Extra time and effort may be needed.

If you don't have the time or the units (and do not need the victory points to win) bypass the suckers. :smoke:

The U.S. used it's 155 mm howitzers to fire direct from close range, often pulverizing the bunker or pillbox (though this is a difficult thing to do in the game) and often made assaulting a moot point.

As with all scenarios designed without it, EA should be "turned on" with reservation (or not at all).

Good luck!



HSL

[Vincent]

Thanks for the informative responses and clarification.

I guess I just didn't have the firepower I needed. I only had some KV-2's and T-34's. Did have a bit of SMG infantry,engineers and used 2 officers when assaulting. My best artillery was some 120mm mortars.

I guess I will have to plan better next time I have to deal with bunkers. EA was not on and I rarely use it unless it's recommended.

[kineas]

Heh, I was the enemy there. I think you tried to take it for at least 8 turns. It was kinda a stalemate, because I was strong enough to hold out, but not strong enough to repel back your forces by causing heavy casualties. My tactic was to disrupt your strongest platoons, therefore preventing a successful close assault. I didn't fire at the tanks or the weak platoons.

My forces were slowly eroding though, the greatest loss was in the last turns when my leader fell victim to arty fire. Maybe more close assaults (I think you only attempted twice) and smoke would have been better.

The main VP hex of the scenario was just under the bunker so there was no going round.

[Larry Reese]

A trick for bunkers and pillboxes: in addition to the regular forces you have in the b/pb, leave an engineer or infantry unit in there, with opfire set to zero for everything. Makes it very hard for the enemy to spot, and he may think he has everything in the b/pb disrupted and try an assault and get a very nasty surprise....

LR