New Moscow '42 update available.

[Strela]

All,

Just a quick heads up that some further fixes have been included in the post under 'Important threads'.

All of the latest changes will only take effect in new games - not existing games. Of the two new changes, there is nothing significant enough to warrant a restart.

Any questions, please put them in this thread.

David

[ComradeP]

Thanks for the new update.

I posted something in the Moscow '42 file thread about German AA units: According to their TOE/OOB (as seen here, for example, http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/...pz-02.html ), German SPAA companies in Panzer divisions had a paper strength of 10 vehicles in 1941. In the game, they all have 12. Only the independent companies seem to have had a paper strength of 12.

The Germans also don't seem to have any motorized light or medium AA units, only light SPAA and heavy motorized AA units. Is that deliberate?

In game terms "motorized" is a gun on a truck, which is incorrect for the Germans. They should either have halftracks or towed AA guns. Their AA guns being on trucks currently gives them a disadvantage in terms of mobility, whilst one of the good things about halftracks was increased cross-country performance, which they now miss. I'm wondering why the Germans have a generic truck-mounted AA gun, instead of the equipment they had historically.

-

Panzer divisions theoretically had 10 SdKfz 10/4's (20mm) and 2 SdKfz 7/1's (20mm Vierling), so maybe they could get a slightly higher AA value per vehicle compared to the independent SdKfz 10/4 units to represent the two Vierlings, even though they have fewer vehicles in total per unit.

I guess my other question, regarding the 132mm Katyusha's performance compared to the 150mm Nebelwerfer, can be answered by the fact that the Rs-132 had about twice the explosive weight, something I wasn't aware of until a few minutes ago.

[Gordons HQ]

Funny how we can always find something about German units I wonder what's missing from the Russian units

Gordon

[ComradeP]

Well, the Soviets have larger units in terms of men/guns per unit (and thus fewer units relatively speaking), so there's somewhat less room for error. There are fewer unit types in most formations in general to begin with.

I have no idea what tanks each Tank brigade had, so the only thing that seems somewhat peculiar to me is that some of them have their early 1942 TOE in December 1941, but that's logical from the perspective of units not changing equipment during a scenario.

I just noticed that there is at least 1 SdKfz 10/4 unit in the scenario.

I'll try to post the theoretical TOE's for the units in the in-game area in the weekend, although figuring out Luftwaffe and Heer FlaK unit TOE's is sort of a nightmare.

[Strela]

Thanks for the new update.

I posted something in the Moscow '42 file thread about German AA units: According to their TOE/OOB (as seen here, for example, http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/...pz-02.html ), German SPAA companies in Panzer divisions had a paper strength of 10 vehicles in 1941. In the game, they all have 12. Only the independent companies seem to have had a paper strength of 12.

The Germans also don't seem to have any motorized light or medium AA units, only light SPAA and heavy motorized AA units. Is that deliberate?

In game terms "motorized" is a gun on a truck, which is incorrect for the Germans. They should either have halftracks or towed AA guns. Their AA guns being on trucks currently gives them a disadvantage in terms of mobility, whilst one of the good things about halftracks was increased cross-country performance, which they now miss. I'm wondering why the Germans have a generic truck-mounted AA gun, instead of the equipment they had historically.

-

Panzer divisions theoretically had 10 SdKfz 10/4's (20mm) and 2 SdKfz 7/1's (20mm Vierling), so maybe they could get a slightly higher AA value per vehicle compared to the independent SdKfz 10/4 units to represent the two Vierlings, even though they have fewer vehicles in total per unit.

I guess my other question, regarding the 132mm Katyusha's performance compared to the 150mm Nebelwerfer, can be answered by the fact that the Rs-132 had about twice the explosive weight, something I wasn't aware of until a few minutes ago.

Here is my source for the Panzer Division Flak units. Osprey's Panzer Divisions : The Eastern Front, 1941 - 43.

Reorganization of the Panzerjager Abteilung (anti-tank unit) began as early as July 1940, but in June 1941 only minor improvements had been obtained. The Abteilung was made up of a Stab and a Nachrichten Zug, and included three PAK Kompanien each with two leichte (37mm PAK 35/36) and one mittlere (50mm PAK 38) Zug, with either three or four guns plus six light MGs. The most common establishment included eight 37mm PAK 35/36, four in each Zug, plus three 50mm PAK 38 (in I, 2, 4,5,9 through 14, 16 through 18. Panzer Divisions), the alternate one for all other divisions included six 37mm (three per Zug) and four 50mm guns; only 3. Panzer Division, which had its Panzerjager Abteilung replaced after handing its own to 5. leichte Division, had twelve 37mm guns. Part of the Abteilung was also a Fla Kompanie made up of two light (four 20mm guns each) and one medium (two 20mm quad) Zug, common to all but three divisions (3, 19 and 20. Panzer Divisions had no Fla Kompanien). The guns were self-propelled, and SdKfz 10/4 and 7/1 half-tracks were used; only the Fla Kompanie in both 17 and 18. Panzer Divisions had four towed four-barreled 20mm guns.

I made a design decision not to go below company equivalents and counted the two Quads at double value hence 12 rather than 10 vehicles.

There is no further reference to organic flak in other battalions within the Division.

The independant Flak units are correct at either 20mm or 88mm, the 37mm being exceedingly rare at this time. The movement rates for the 'towed' 20mm's are an artiface of the game system where light flak though towed has a high mobility due to the short limber time. The graphic of the gun on the back of the truck to be honest is a misrepresentation and one I asked the artists to change to no avail.

The information for the Soviet Tank Brigades came from Charles C Sharp's Soviet Order of Battle Volume 1. It is available on the web. It lays out each brigades configuration and in many cases tank type at various dates. If you can tell me which brigades you believe are wrong I will review but I would be surprised if you can find an error.

A hell of a lot of work went into this OB and I spent many, many hours validating as many data points as possible.

David

[Gordons HQ]

ComradeP

I respect your point of view but I think you are missing my point a bit. The Axis are very well documented and it is easy to find the odd little error now and again whereas the Russians are not very well documented and some things will never come to see the light of day. Therefore it could be easy to tip the balance of things by keep adjusting one side without being able to redress the other side.
I think Stela has done a wonderful job here and so much hard work has obviously gone into the making of M42 it is perhaps unreasonable to point out such things as an odd halftrack is required here and there in the grand scale of things.

Gordon

[ComradeP]

Apologies, I seem to have jumped the gun. After checking the Panzer division organization, it's correct for the AA units. I initially feared the vehicles were abstracted into the mixed PzJ units, but they are there, just stacked with the HQ in the rear.

Gordon, I agree that it can be very easy to get lost in the details. Due to my own work on scenarios for other games, I have developed sort of a natural habit to first see what seems wrong instead of what's right, as it makes it easier to detect errors. In this case, I jumped the gun on the Panzer division AA units. I commented on the motorized 20mm units because it seemed weird that they were represented by a truck-mounted 20mm gun.

David, regarding the Tank brigades, the main thing that seems peculiar to me is that they have truck-mounted AA guns in early December, but I understand that from a gameplay and historical perspective, TOE changes during a scenario can be slightly abstracted.

I guess I have just been staring at strength overviews too long in the past week, so again: apologies.

[Strela]

Apologies, I seem to have jumped the gun. After checking the Panzer division organization, it's correct for the AA units. I initially feared the vehicles were abstracted into the mixed PzJ units, but they are there, just stacked with the HQ in the rear.

Gordon, I agree that it can be very easy to get lost in the details. Due to my own work on scenarios for other games, I have developed sort of a natural habit to first see what seems wrong instead of what's right, as it makes it easier to detect errors. In this case, I jumped the gun on the Panzer division AA units. I commented on the motorized 20mm units because it seemed weird that they were represented by a truck-mounted 20mm gun.

David, regarding the Tank brigades, the main thing that seems peculiar to me is that they have truck-mounted AA guns in early December, but I understand that from a gameplay and historical perspective, TOE changes during a scenario can be slightly abstracted.

I guess I have just been staring at strength overviews too long in the past week, so again: apologies.

ComradeP,

No offense taken!

I appreciate peer review. One reason this thread is here is because people identified errors. Please don't stop staring at h mass of data. It's what I did!

David