An idea for a new class of units - medical unit types

[Crossroads]

I am intrigued...

Medic, as a foot leader, running around trying to help disrupted units recover by adding to morale as far as the game mechanics are concerned. Negative or neutral victory value as they are operating at front lines and likely to be surrounded and captured among other troops and there should be no penalty for that? No attack / defense value. No spotting capability.

Field hospital / first-aid hospital, again available to help disrupted units recover (by adding to their morale). Possibly implemented as a stationary unit without a capability to move. So it is located where scenario designer put it. You would need to transport the troops there with an available transport. No attack / defense value. Neutral victory value, as if they fall behind lines they would just be left there. No spotting capability.

I admit especially with latter, we are firmly on the same ground as with say Bridging Engineers. Stretching the limits of scale a bit. But then again, I love my Bridging Engineers. This blowing bridges - trying to repair them again is über kühl

Worth a shot? Me says yes.

[Crossroads]

[Removed the Kelly's Heroes vid as it was detracting from OP]

[John Given]

I'm loving all the dialogue - keep the comments coming guys.

Ok, some great comments were posted.

Posted by K K Rossokolski - Today 06:25 AM
"1. that medics should only be able morale-boost / heal infantry type units only? Just throwing that out there."

I for one am not aware of any civilised military force that instructs the medical branch to heal only one branch of the service.

Hmm. Now that you mention it, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. When I wrote that, I was thinking in terms of what was possible within the game engine (which could be corrected by 'attaching' a medical unit to the highest echelon HQ), and also the idea of foot medic recovering the disrupted status of say, a king tiger platoon, which struck me as not very realistic.

But a good point nonetheless - medics don't discriminate with regard to who they heal (hippocratic oath and all).

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Today 07:29 AM Your ambulance/medic was just another idea in the bucket of other ideas (from other players) that have been put into the game.
I've seen it in the past. "Hey, I got a coooool idear here to help make the game more realistic/better/easier/harder/bigger/smaller/whatever that got dumped into the game without regard to scale or impact.

Ed, this very thread IS the proverbial "regard to scale and impact." You're welcome. However, I don't want you to think I'm not taking into account your rejection to this idea. It's weighing on me. KKR's comments as well.

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Today 07:29 AM it does not dispense the notion that they are not going to be good for the game.

And how do you know this exactly, Ed?

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Today 07:29 I just do not want or need medics to be added to the game.

That pretty much sums it up for you then - that's cool - you certainly have the right to your own opinion. However, this discussion is not about what *you* want Ed, it's about whether having medical units in the game is a positive or a negative for our hobby, and why.

Posted by Herr Straßen Läufer - Today 07:29 One poster already changed the parameters of you medic's effect upon the game. He wants strength points added to units that have them. I guess if they throw on a bandage and give a shot of morphine they can get guys back to fighting ... in six minutes?

Not to worry - this is outside the ability / parameters of the game engine. Basically, it's impossible to implement / program into the game.

Posted by PawelM - Today 08:47 AM Then the queation is how a bout capturing cowardly and poor leaders w ith negative morale impact? I am sure nobody would stack them with their units if they had negative command coefficient :)

Pawel, I think you may be confused about my earlier mention of negative point value of the medical units. The purpose of it was only to discourage enemy players from firing on them, but low enough (negative) point value so that IF the medic was destroyed anyway (such as during an assault that contained regular infantry units) the attacker would not be unfairly penalized. I'm envisioning a point value of a basic medic as about -2 per sp (and no more than 2 strength points max.).

Actually, I'm not even sure if a negative morale modifier is even possible within the confines of the game engine.

Posted by PawelM - Today 08:47 AM As for healing- weird idea given the game scale. What happens the with the poits? If I kill 1sp of an units and get points for it, then what happens to my points after they have been healed? Do I keep the points or the healing process reverts it? If I keep the points and the kill the same unit again after healing I can get doubole triple point for repeatedly killing the units?

if the people can be healed, then how about disbled tanks? Surely the tracks can be fixed healed and the tank can come back to action. You can apply this to any vehicle..

Once again, all of this is completely outside the capability of the game engine to emulate. It's never going to happen...because it can't be programmed into the game to begin with.

And I took careful note of the rest of your post on your position regarding this (and thanks for the comments). Too long to quote it all though. So far, you, Ed, and KKR are the main detractors.

Posted by Kool Kat - Today 09:50 AM As I mentioned in an earlier post, the morale function is already performed by the CS commander units. Why introduce a "lesser officer" unit that only boosts morale?

I keep getting you mixed up with battle kat.

Good post, but the quote above pretty much sums up your whole post - what's the point of this, when we already have officers? In other words, it seems like a redundant unit. And to a point, I agree - there is a 'redundancy factor' here in my proposal.

Take the German side in East Front (JTCS). I ask you - how many different types of (soft) transport units do you think they have? What about different types of trucks only? I never counted - but it's a lot. Pure trucks alone, you're looking at maybe half a dozen different models. And you know what? They all....do the exact same thing. Same victory point value, different graphic. A few might have slightly better (or worse) movement rates, but not by much.

Why is that important? Well for one, variety for the sake of variety is really cool. I like that there is a realism factor based only on the fact that different models were present in real life, even if for game victory purposes, it doesn't add up to a hill of beans. Someone, somewhere, said "hey, i could add a lot of different types of trucks, just because the different graphics would be neat - maybe a little historical accuracy on the different unit names would add a little realism." And all was good. Not one time, has anyone ever complained in this forum that the variety of axis trucks in the game was a problem. (Try to imagine a thread titled: "Why does the axis get / need 6 different types of trucks!") And why would they?

My point is, there's a LOT of 'redundancy' of units already built into the game. Not only does it not damage our game, not cause confusion or other problems, not cause people to complain in the forums, it adds variety and makes the game more FUN to play, AND, it hasn't stopped us from adding a ton of new features to our game, which is awesome.

Sorry if this was long winded but I've been awake for 36 hours straight, ugh.

[PawelM]

I think my main point in the question should be more generic first: Does majority of us feel that morale should be a bigger thing in CS? For me the answer is no, but if majority feel differently then units like medics take them in the right direction....

As for trucks and variety.... I could not care less if there was 1 truck type for all or 500, even for the sake of icons. What matters to me are the unit parameters. 60-70% of the time I play using 2D view and always with the sound on mute. So one can tell that any eye or ear candy mods in CS do not impress me (as well as truck icon variety :) )

John... with negative commander influence I did not confuse it as you thought.. I was trying to make a point that if we are proposing ways (like medics) to improve morale, why nobody proposes a way of negative morale influence by other than combat factors? For instance if the unit occupies hex with other disrupted units, one could think it makes sense it should be easier to disrupt it due to influence of other friendly units being in disarray? Or for instance if a cowardly leader gets panicked and causes negative influence on the unit?

I think in general the whole morale and disruption topic is very interesting. And in general I am not opposing Johns idea. My disapproval is more resulting from the fact that we are just introducing a single thing. I would be more up for it if the discussion was more to a overall morale topic with consideration to capture more than just a positive morale effects?

[Herr Straße Laufer]

John, what "I want" for the game is that it remains the good, solid design, and simulation that was presented as balanced in its original form. Adding all the "new things" without regard to the original intent will make changes that I do not like and I am willing to defend.

I also want drivers to stop at stop signs because it is the law. If you don't like to stop at a stop sign and I ask you to obey the law, is it my opinion of what I want, or is it the law?
Just for safety sake would you want me to stop driving and it would make your ability to run stop signs easier for you?

I think Pawel had it spot on. The game factors morale in already. The roads and stop signs are there. Why try to add what does not need to be added or run the stop signs?

What units are redundant to the point of unbalancing the already existing morale program?
I say the redundant medic add on would not be good for that reason. So, why have it?

I do not think of myself as a detractor as much as a defender. And, I would not let you paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa either.



HSL

[Panther]

Well, a few good points were named here, a lot of interesting views but some are not to understand.

Herr Straßen Läufer, since i´m a member of this great community here you were a part of them and i know your "words" find recognition here.

But my friend, is it correct to take the right and say what´s right or wrong, good or bad or what´s needed or not for the game? I don´t think so. We can discuss, evertime!

And your example with the streets and the law? I´m sorry, but this is not a good compare. We´re here not talking about rules in reality, we´re talking about a ... game.

I like medics into my troops and can not see that they disturb the gameplay or the balance. Maybe i´m wrong. If it´s so ... please let me know. You have my whole attention.

R
Stefan

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Herr Straßen Läufer, since i´m a member of this great community here you were a part of them and i know your "words" find recognition here.

But my friend, is it correct to take the right and say what´s right or wrong, good or bad or what´s needed or not for the game? I don´t think so. We can discuss, evertime!

I see myself as just another voice. I wish they could be seen that way too.
And, yes, I have the right to express what I believe is right or wrong for the game. My vested interest is that I love playing it and I do not want it ruined. It happened to Squad Leader the board game. They enhanced it to Advanced Squad Leader and took a really fun board game from me, after much time and money invested in it.

And your example with the streets and the law? I´m sorry, but this is not a good compare. We´re here not talking about rules in reality, we´re talking about a ... game.

Sorry, you are wrong. Rules and scale are the "laws" of this game. If medics that effect morale are added the scale and existing rules will be effected. You and John think in a good way. I think in a bad way. Too many out of scale (against the law) things have already been added to the game. I'm simply pushing back against new ones.

I like medics into my troops and can not see that they disturb the gameplay or the balance. Maybe i´m wrong. If it´s so ... please let me know. You have my whole attention.

We've been told not to repeat old arguments, so I can only say, "sorry, you are wrong".
They can work in your mod. It is your mod. I do not want them in CS because they would be wrong for CS. The morale system works as is. I cannot help it if you cannot see it that way.



HSL

[Panther]

And, yes, I have the right to express what I believe is right or wrong for the game. My vested interest is that I love playing it and I do not want it ruined.

Well, but it´s your extreme view of the point. But the game isn´t made for Herr Straßen Läufer or for Panther only. I spend a lot of my free time about four years for development, creating and testing in the Matrix Beta Brigade and for my CWE. Did you believe i would do that if i don´t love the game?

Sorry, you are wrong. Rules and scale are the "laws" of this game.

Excuse me, you compares a game with the real life! Accept, we need rules in the gameplay, but this sounds again you want to push only your view. A new unit, called medic, and the game lost his rules or is ruined?

We've been told not to repeat old arguments, so I can only say, "sorry, you are wrong".

Well, and i remember that is your view of the point. You don´t like medics and than they are wrong for the game. Convince me with facts, not with refer to laws.

They can work in your mod. It is your mod.

Correct, and they will do. And i remember again: No one "must" play the medics.

I do not want them in CS because they would be wrong for CS.

Ok, i heard it now some times ago. Are they guilty or gift for the game and is the whole game no longer playable with them? I don´t think so.

The morale system works as is. I cannot help it if you cannot see it that way.

The morale system works fine with them further. Who decide that it works not? Again, convince me with facts.

The best way would be the following. Play a scenario with medics and than tell me if medics ruin the whole campaign series gameplay. Test it, than make your judgment!

R
Stefan

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

Posts are starting to get a little heated... and this thread has run its course.

Thread is closed.