Grenada combat issue

Bloody Bill · 07-23-2019, 03:08 AM,

Hey guys

I am having an issue with killing AFV's in Grenada. My AT weapons never seem to hit even at one hex away. What is the point of M72-LAW? I never hit with this weapon.

I played the getting started scenario five time. I have killed 12 of the Cuban BTR-60's during these play through's. Not one of them died by my AT weapons. All were killed either by small arms fire or assault. I never one time hit with the M72-LAW and all shots were from one hex away. Why can I knock out a BTR with an M16A1 but now my AT weapon?

Regards

Bloody Bill

wiggum · (This post was last modified: 07-26-2019, 01:13 AM by wiggum.)

Anti-Armour combat is the BIG problem of the Squad Battles series (together with the awkward way weapons decrease in effectivity). I also had good order AT guns miss 5 shot in a row on static tank at 200m with clear LOS to the target...

I think its just a internal issue with the way the calculations are done (i suspect they are done the same way as the Anti-Personal results). Sadly i think, at this point we should no expect a fix are update for Squad Battles that changes the code to adress this problem.

Bloody Bill · 07-27-2019, 12:59 PM,

Thanks for the reply Wiggum. I think I am just going to have to shelve this title for now. I do not understand the values when AFV's are killed more often by standard small arms fire then the AT weapons's designed to kill them.

Mowgli · (This post was last modified: 12-23-2019, 07:54 PM by Mowgli.)

(07-23-2019, 03:08 AM)Bloody Bill Wrote: Hey guys

I am having an issue with killing AFV's in Grenada. My AT weapons never seem to hit even at one hex away. What is the point of M72-LAW? I never hit with this weapon.

I played the getting started scenario five time. I have killed 12 of the Cuban BTR-60's during these play through's. Not one of them died by my AT weapons. All were killed either by small arms fire or assault. I never one time hit with the M72-LAW and all shots were from one hex away. Why can I knock out a BTR with an M16A1 but now my AT weapon?

Regards

Bloody Bill

I took a look!

The LAW is an AT weapon (indicated by the "&") with a range of 4, a lethality of 35 and a penetration of 80.
The BTRs 60 have an armor value of 7.
Scenario-specific parameter data: The Vehicle Fire Factor is *0.5, Immobile Probability is 60%, Hard Vehicle Armor value = 20, fire thresholds are 6 (low) - 60 (high).

So, let's go through an example under good conditions, which are the following:

The firing team is at 100% effectiveness.
The LAW is at 100% effectiveness (note that if a weapon has been dropped, effectiveness is reduced quite a lot! p. 70)
The firing team is neither disrupted, pinned nor demoralized (any of these would reduce the fire power by 50%!)
The firing team is at range 1 (fire power *2; at range 2, the fire power would drop to *1, at range 3 or 4, it would only be *0.5)
The BTR is not immobilized yet (fire power *0.5; against an immobilized vehicle, the fire power would be *1)
The BTR has no cover (vehicles profit from 50% of the available cover in a hex)
Note that the aspect/direction of the shot vs. the armor does not matter, as the BTR's armor value (7) is below the "Hard Vehicle Armor Value" (20).

So, let's go through the calculations:

nr. of firing weapons = 1
lethality of weapon = 35
effectiveness of weapon = *1
effectiveness of firing team = *1
range factor (point blank) = *2
firing at non-immobilized vehicle = *0.5
specialized AT weapon firing at vehicle = *2
penetration factor = *1.5 (penetration / armor = 80/7 = 11.4 --> this is capped at 1.5 for AT weapons)

--> 1*35*1*1*2*0.5*2*1.5= 105

With a final fire value of 105, we can calculate our chance to knock out the BTR, taking into account the low and high fire thresholds (p.71). Accordingly, the success chance is a random chance somewhere between 6.3% and 63%, normally around 30%. That's quite good!

However, any success has a chance of 60% (parameter "Immobile Probability") to be converted into an immobilization (rather than a knock-out) only. But once the BTR is immobilized, it should be even easier to knock it out.

RESULT:
If my calculations are correct, then a properly applied LAW is decently, but not really impressively effective against the BTRs. The success chance is about 30% per shot under almost ideal conditions. The problem is, however, that the LAWs only have 1 shot and that even if they hit, there is a 60% chance for the BTR to be immobilized rather than knocked out. In any case, make sure that your firing team is neither disrupted nor pinned at that you're firing at point blank range. Don't forget that a hex represents a distance of 40m! If any of these conditions are not met, the effectiveness of your fire is reduced quite drastically (to 15% or even 7% per shot). Also make sure to save your LAWs for the right moment: It's a good idea to put them on hold (select the LAW and press hotkey "F") to prevent them from being used for opportunity fire.

On a positive and often overlooked note: Even if your laws fail to take out the BTR, they will reduce their effectiveness quite a lot, thereby degrading their fire power and slowing them down. If my calculations are correct, then with a fire value of 105, a BTR should lose around 15% of effectiveness (between 3 and 30%) per shot. The problem is that the random factor for vehicle effectiveness loss is huge and you can't see your opponent's vehicles' effectiveness. Also, all BTRs look the same, so you might not be able to tell which one had had its fire capabilities degraded by your fire.

The fact that small arms fire might seem almost equally effective is probably related to the comparatively low armor value of the BTR. Thus "penetration" - which is the LAW's main advantage - is not that much of an isse. Against the thin armor of the BTR, a few M16s (lethality 19, penetration 6) can be quite effective. And they have plenty of ammo...