Units rarely break..observations and questions

[von Waldenburg]

Dog, nice leaflet hehee

As Baelfiin noted the units need be at max fatigue to be "breakable". Add to that the quality fatigue modifier new rule which is default in Minsk and you get the answer.

[Glenn Saunders]

There is essentially no "mass" surrender in this engine, much like what happened to the 106th ID in the Ardennes in December of 1944.

If you assault a surrounded unit and it cannot retreat, additonal men are removed. This wasn't enouigh for some people and I think early in the series developement, John created an optional rule that would remove the entire unit if it can't retreat, not just extra men.

I personally don't like this rule, but people asked for it, so John gave in and did it. Off hand I would say it is rarely used - some people just like to complain and it was easier to do to make this point go away.

I believe that when an army is getting its hat handed to it, (like) the 106th (in the Ardennes )

No - there is nothing that would take the whole FORMATION off the map in two hours. And likewise nothing that would take the entire 101 AB Div off the map in the same game - (how many game turns was the 101st surrounded and said NUTS!) , or nothing that would eliminate the entire sixth Army in Stalingrad in a two hour turn when the army held out for weeks\months - until sometime in Feburary which would be several hundred turns.

.... or the Italians in Sicily, there should be a check for the entire unit to "break" or just be taken off the map.

Actually if you play the Sicily Campiagn you will find that some units like the Italian coastal divisions do MELT and this effect is discussed in the designer notes.

SO I think we have these situations covered as best as we can and anything we would or could do to make a Division Surrender In Mass to would likely have other side effects which are not desirable - that is I think we would consider them to be over design.

I really like this QUOTE from Greg "Sturmer" Smith from the MG44 Designer NOtes - he said:

"A problem with designing a Market-Garden game is that there are so many special situations and anecdotes, so many crazy little encounters, that it would be easy to fall into the trap of attempting to ensure that every one of these "events" gets to happen. To do so would really rob the players of the ability to command the operation themselves, and make their own decisions. We have tried to avoid this tendency to "overchrome" the battle."

...and I think this is something I know I've tried to pay heed to in any titles I've worked on.

Glenn

[HirooOnoda]

Thanks for the response Glenn.

I just find that in the games I play there is a huge tendence for most units to fight to the death. Yet in reality this didn't happen. Especially in the West.

Take care,

Hiroo