Alt Version of K44 - Community Request

[Volcano Man]

Will you make a 'fixed' version of this scenario as well as a ahistorical unfixed one? What about VPs and locations?

I commented on this on the previous page of posts but you might have missed it since it was buried amongst other info. Here it is again:

"Actually, I have already set this too. The Germans *do* start out fixed around the salient with gradual releases as the campaign progresses so that they cannot immediately pull back from turn 1. Also, the objectives are much higher value to influence the Germans to contest them. This part will not be changed and if people do not like it then, well, they don't have to play the scenario (they can play the stock game where nothing is fixed). The intent is to create something at least semi-historical here, and go from a situation where the Russians don't have a chance in Hades to a balanced, at least semi-historical outcome. The Germans have well enough tanks and firepower to get out of a pocket I believe, and not influencing the campaign to the point that a pocket will never form is a waste of a scenario.

Just as no Axis player would elect to play a campaign where they are fixed, it should be equally true that a Russian player never elect to play a campaign where they are not fixed. So there is no way around this other than to forcibly influence the semi-historical and have people try to "do their best" with the cards they are dealt. "

[Dog Soldier]

One thing that I doubt the game will simulate correctly, is the effectiveness of the german tank crews and their equipment. There are some documented engagements during the Korsun battle where ~20 panzers knocked out a 3-4 times larger tank force. There are several factors contributing to such results, not all of them modeled in the game. For instance, the PzV Panther could easily knock out a T34 at 2 km range, and did so consistently if commanded by a experienced crew. Not in PzC, at least not from what I've seen so far.

Since you have not played the stock CG version of Korsun 44, that may be were you missed this aspect. I have played the stock version from both sides. The German panzers have little trouble in a direct shootout destroying the entire Soviet tank corps of the 2nd Ukrainian Front in a single day of combat. The only way I found to make the Axis pay, was to rush single companies of panzers with the entire Soviet tank corps and assault in a single turn. It was weird using the Soviets as the hit and run tankers versus the Axis swarms of tigers, STGs and PzkwiVs. Heck, when enough defensive fire was sapped from the Soviet tank stacks, even the AT HTs came in to pick off a few more. It felt like using snowballs in July to be the Soviets.

I see many members like this title. We are all looking forward to the VM and Strela's work. While waiting, there are good smaller scale scenarios in the stock game to keep people playing it.

Dog Soldier

[cavalry corps]

One thing that I doubt the game will simulate correctly, is the effectiveness of the german tank crews and their equipment. There are some documented engagements during the Korsun battle where ~20 panzers knocked out a 3-4 times larger tank force. There are several factors contributing to such results, not all of them modeled in the game. For instance, the PzV Panther could easily knock out a T34 at 2 km range, and did so consistently if commanded by a experienced crew. Not in PzC, at least not from what I've seen so far.

Perhaps the first issue is simulated through unit morale, I don't know if that does it well enough. However the second issue, range accuracy & lethality, work in favor of the russians in this game, as it evens out the playfield.

Soviet reports consistently exaggerated german force strength and numbers. Why that is exactly is hard to tell. However, given the actual strength of the german units during this battle, the germans did remarkably well. As Zetterling points out in his book, the Soviet strength was strategy, while their incompetence was on tactical level. For the germans it was the opposite, their strength was tactical prowess with highly trained NCOs but the strategy failed miserably time and again, many times because of direct intervention of Hitler himself. You know how they jokingly say that the best allied general was Hitler.

Hit nail on head - you are correct

But look at PZC is offering more realism than you think

In a mobile battle the panzers breakdown and iso the big T34 unis ( somehow ???) especially when the rampage behind your lines. Hold your nerve , invite them in , then isolate them . Isolated they disrupt easily and get assaulted - this despite all the complaints about small units is how the Germans at tactivcal level are always superior. This breakdown is the key and they best way its shown in the game. Thats how I killed many Russian T34 units in Minsk 44 .

As regrds the other issues , yes morale is the only abstract thing we have but the range mod is usually set at 1/3 - I prefer 1/2 that would improve the LL gunned units

High Morale units also take less fatigue so will disrupt less

At the end of the day the values of the units can be changed as well

Michael

[Strela]

If any one is wondering, the new Korsun Alt scenarios are very near completion.

These are completely reworked using Niklas Zetterling's research. You will see new campaign setups, corrected armor, AT and artillery strengths and most importantly new OOB's.

If you have been frustrated by the sheer plethora of units in this title fear not, the platoon structure is gone and companies for the Germans is now the base with an amount of rationalisation to allow better company consolidation.

We expect the game to play very differently - the Soviets will be able to form the pocket and the German's will be able to counterattack ONCE their reinforcements arrive. Before that the Germans will have what they had historically, very weak mobile troops and a lot of foot troops.

All that is left to do is Kanev and Kirovograd, but these will take time as there is as much work to do these as Korsun. Whether the Korsun Alt scenarios are released without these will be up to VM....