Visible Hexes/LOS

Bacillus98 · 07-03-2009, 07:38 AM,

Hello. I was trying to figure out how exactly LOS/visible hex system works in PzC. The manual really only talks about LOS in a couple of sentences that state "Seeing the target is based on the combined effect of Line-of-Sight and Visibility range. Basically, units cannot see through towns, woods or over hills, nor see beyond the maximum visibility for the environmental conditions." My wily PBEM opponent was able to use indirect fire on a Soviet unit in a forest hex 3 hexes away. According to the visible hexes view, there are five German units that can be a "possible" spotter. Visibility is exactly three hexes away from the spotting unit on this current turn due to weather. In all cases, the Germans units have this describing the 3 hexes to my unit. First hex is visible, second hex is greyed out, but the third hex where my unit is located(in a forest nevertheless) is normal, or visible. I thought a grey hex interrupts view of a unit. Any ideas on how my unit was spotted? Note: the German units are across a river so I don't see how a recon element comes into play.

Hadge · 07-03-2009, 07:54 AM,

Hi B-98

Check out "Dust Spotting" ......a unit that fires or moves in the previous turn has percentage chance of been spotted by the enemy (only in some games/scenarios dependant on the parameters set) - the specifics of the unit are not known, but its whereabouts can be seen as an "unknown" unit and therfore fired upon .... the actual LOS is not relavant in this - hence "dust spotting"

Chris

**Ricky B** · 07-03-2009, 08:04 AM,

From the actual description, I don't think this is dust spotting Chris, as Bacillus states the hex the unit is in is normal/visible to the enemy units.

My guess would be that the spotted unit is most likely an elevation higher than the spotting units and the intervening hexes, or else the intervening hexes are lower than the spotter and spotted hexes, but that is unlikely I think.

Bacillus, think of it this way, back to my old Squad Leader days and LOS. If the hexes are all the same elevation, or on a consistent elevation gain/drop, then anything in between the spotter and spotted units will block the LOS, including units. However, if there is an elevation difference, then the position of the obsruction to sight compared to the spotter and spotted units is taken into account. For example, the target unit is 2 elevations higher than the spotter, the obstruction is 1 elevation exactly halfway between the 2, then LOS is blocked, but if the obstruction is closer to the higher unit, it won't block the LOS between the 2.

You can visualize it in real terms using coins stacked, and move them around, and use a thread pulled tight to see where the middle one is touched and where it isn't.

Rick

Hadge · 07-03-2009, 08:24 AM,

B-98

Good points by Ricky - wrong end of the stick from my POV.

This is why Ricky has 3 Stars and I'm still not an officer, whilst having been demoted by a half stripe at least once already :happy: -

You could have a look at the situation in 3d mode to give you a different perspective - it may, or may not, help to get a feel for whats happened.

Chris

Bacillus98 · (This post was last modified: 07-03-2009, 08:28 AM by Bacillus98.)

Thanks for the discussion Ricky and Hadge. Here is a link to a snapshot of what I am referring too in my discussion.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9540/losscreenie.jpg

The selected unit is German, and I have selected what his visible hexes are shown to be in game. Even though the Soviet ENG unit in the forest elevation is higher,(220 m) compared to 200 m, how can one see 3 kilometers away enemy unit concentrations in a forest that is across a river? This seems like a contradiction to my recent acquired feeble military knowledge :)

Hadge · 07-03-2009, 08:37 AM,

Hi

The greyed out hexes only represent hexes that cannot be spotted from the spotting hex - they (the greyed out hexes) do not in themselves block the LOS - they just cannot be seen from the spotting hex due to the LOS and elevation referances that Ricky made earlier

Also bear in mind that forest, villages and other terrain "lift" the relative height of intervening terrain by varying amounts as per the Parameter data

Chris

Bacillus98 · 07-03-2009, 09:17 AM,

I now understand the grey shaded area meaning, but still don't get how a unit can "see" across a river 3 km away a unit that is in a forest(trees obscure visibility in real life). Perhaps I am not getting what "visibility" really means. Is it a recon unit attached to a battalion/company?

Volcano Man · 07-03-2009, 11:29 AM,

Well, like most strategy games and board games, you can always see into the first obstructed hex. If there is a second obstructed hex at the same elevation beyond the first (such as another forest hex) then you will not be able to see into it unless there are extreme elevation differences involved.

Bacillus98 · (This post was last modified: 07-03-2009, 11:43 AM by Bacillus98.)

Well VM, that makes a little more sense. What I am trying to do is understand the real life concepts translated to board/pc game. I am imagining a commander looking through his binoculars, which I would assume have a 3km range, but would a battalion be spotted across a river 3km away? The river in question, is the Vop river, which is no slouch. I am guessing there has to be some type of recon element to be able to identify enemy forces in a sufficient concentration. I am trying to avoid my HQ units from being blasted into oblivion since I thought they were safe from front lines 3 to 4 hexes away front line. My PBEM opponent is very skillful, so I hope to pick up a trick or two to avoid such carnage in the future!