New S42 Campaign!

[von Nev]

I agree what you are saying Marquo namely that the Russians won. That is not being disputed.

What we are trying to figure out is how to get somewhat historical results where the Russians crushed the Germans in late Jan not late November.

I would disagree with you that the Germans were a rambling, uncohesive mass. The Russians took horrific casualties trying to attack the pocket. In fact, they first thought they only surrounded some 80K Germans. They had no idea that they surrounded over 230,000. When they first attacked the pocket in Nov and Dec they were soundly defeated. That is why they waited for an entire month and a half preparing to attack the pocket with overwhelming force.

[Volcano Man]

Yes, I don't see the supply changes as something that would suddenly keep the Russians from winning at Stalingrad. If anything, this is probably the lesser evil of all the suggestions made in this thread. However, the changes to supply will at least make it so that the Russians can't be completely reckless and throw everything to the winds in order to crush the Stalingrad pocket in less than a months time. It will give the Germans a historical fighting chance to hold them off for the historical amount of time, thereby making Winter Storm at least a *possibility* that both sides will have to fight hard for. I think we both accomplished that in different ways.

I suspect that it would be one helluva a fight with the supply changes to where both sides have a chance at victory, but the Russians still holding the upper hand.

[Liquid_Sky]

Supply is a rather nebulous thing. What does it really mean to have 50% supply in a hex? What it means is when I fire, or assault, there will be a check to see if I go on Low Ammo. That check is made at the supply level of 50%.

If the check fails. Another one is made to see if the unit was able to draw supplies from its command. It follows the usual command range test which checks the range from the unit to the HQ. For Ex. If a unit is on the HQ then the test is 100%. At the max range, it will be 50%, and prorated if in between.

Having played Kharkov, what I tend to notice is that my dwindling supply level did not really stop me from attacking. While I did end up with units on Low Ammo, I rarely ever saw units on Low Fuel. And when I did, they usually came before noon. Low Ammo was not that bad of a penalty, as they would be the guys I would move to hold the line, or dig in, or even, just rest to regain fatigue. The division would usually have enough units together to allow me to assault. So the truth is, the supply level will probably not stop a player from continuing his assault.

On another note, the movement rate of Russian horse drawn artillery is atrocious in the _alts. The foot infantry easily outraces it. The motorized stuff isnt too bad, as it can move very well along a primary road, and is fairly good on a secondary, but also lags behind the foot over open ground. The Russian artillery works best on a slow moving front, or on a pocket, where you can't escape it...

A couple other things to note: While the germans may have lost at Stalingrad, they did not lose during the length of the campaign game. In fact, they were hardly scratched. I notice in von Nev's game, he has pillboxes all over the place for the German lines...which is probably the best way to direct the russian effort to preventing the counter attack. The germans will be loathe to leave them, and the russians will have a hard (but not impossible) time cracking them.

There is an indirect fire modifier in the paramater data for artillery. I notice that the Russians are set at 50%. Doesnt that mean that russian artillery is half as effective on indirect fire as German (or American) artillery?

I have some other things about victory points, but I think they are better in a new thread...

[Volcano Man]

There is an indirect fire modifier in the paramater data for artillery. I notice that the Russians are set at 50%. Doesnt that mean that russian artillery is half as effective on indirect fire as German (or American) artillery?

Yes, it does. The _Alt has always factored this in that the Russian artillery is half as effective as other nationalities so their indirect mod is set at 50%. This was done from the start to model exactly what everyone has brought up in this thread as the difference between their artillery versus say, US or German -- I just didn't say anything earlier. ;)

So, the idea that Russian artillery is equal to US or German is simply not true, they are half as effective as they should be on an attack factor basis alone. So, you can imagine, if they had full effectiveness of their artillery, how devastating they would really be. They have great guns and a large concentration of them as well. It really doesn't make sense to castrate them even further in this area; the artillery IS the Russian Army's one virtue (amongst some others of course).

In other words, they are quite well penalized enough in this area I think. Now whether someone thinks this modifier should be even lower or higher is something else I will not alter; it will not change in the _Alt scenarios that I work on because 50% has been thoroughly tested in many titles to be "about right". Others can alter it if they so desire though...