Ballistics of WW2 Artillery

[Wolfgang]

Curious...

I wonder how realistic it is to be able to target an individual unit with artillery or with air power in a 1k hex using WW2 technology. I imagine there are a wide array of opinions on this topic.

I guess that's a 2 part question.

Would the accuracy/targetting of WW2 era artillery and location technologies allow for selective targetting in a 1k sized hex? If so what would be the approximate resolution of that targetting? I.e.: How much of attack would actually fall on the intended target vs. other targets present in that 1k area?

Same question for Air.
If a ww2 era Air unit is targetting an area of 1k, would it be able to pick out pre defined targets among those present in that same hex?

Would orders like that be given to a pilot? I.e.: "We want you to attack this specific unit located approximately here..."


I guess I'm starting to think that maybe the dimensions that the optional rules touch on regarding this aspect of pzc may be more realistic than the default rules - That's not an argument that these specific rules should be used though: the details/restrictions that come along with them may not be the worth the trade.

----
Optional rules referenced:

Alternative Indirect Fire Resolution
Indirect Fire of non-mortar, non-heavy weapon units is conducted under different rules. First, each such Indirect Fire is doubled in fire value, but the cost of firing is doubled (so arty units will only fiire once). Second, such Indirect Fire is applied against all units in the target hex, proportional to their strength, instead of being applied against a single target unit, so the more men/vehicles/guns you have stacked in a hex the greater your losses will be, the fact you cannot target an individual unit could be seen as more realistic.

Alternative Air Strike Resolution
Air Strikes are applied against all units in the target hex, proportional to their strength, instead of being applied against a single target unit, so the more men/vehicles/guns you have stacked in a hex the greater your losses will be, the fact you cannot target an individual unit could be seen as more realistic.

[Pete]

Hi Ironwulf,
absent any input we could try those various rules for a few turns in a battle....

In France 14 there is no target selection for any method of firing (ie guns, mg or infantry), the results seems realistic....
Pete

[Liebchen]

Don't sell them too short. It depended upon their training, to a large extent, but well trained gunners could be pretty accurate. This link (http://nigelef.tripod.com/errorsmistakes.htm) is talking about British guns, giving 25 lbers. a probability error within the 35 yard range. Imagine many salvos and multiply the odds.

Keep in mind that ships in that age were all about the guns. They were pitching, rolling, and yawing, and yet they worried about laying down good shell patterns. Now put those guns on solid ground...

So, yeah, I think that they could center their rounds inside a battalion- or company-sized formation with some accuracy. (FWIW I recall targeting certain formations all of the time playing Combat Mission.)

[ComradeP]

With an observer, accurate artillery fire was certainly possible. In the game, we're talking about 2-3 companies per hex most of the time. As long as the target is somewhat spread out, it could be targeted reliably by a battery. Keep in mind that targeting small units, say a squad, would be trickier because the guns would more or less have to fire at the same area with a small error margin due to the low target density. The bigger or more spread out a target is (due to shells dropping at certain intervals, not at exactly the same spot, because of the distance between the guns in the battery and their pattern of fire), the more likely you are to hit at least something with your opening volleys.

[Liquid_Sky]

Hmmmph..define 'individual unit'. A Battalion? A company? And is the random range of results (usually ranging from fatigue to a few guys lost) believable? The unit is not 'spread out' in the entire 1k hex, but is probably grouped around some feature. (or perhaps advancing spread out in an open ground area).

During a 2 hour interval, can enough rounds fall to do the damage we see in the game? If anything it is too low. I usually see a 24 gun battery do around 10 damage to men in light cover. One round can kill 10 guys.

The game uses a lot of statistics condensed down into probability. For example, Hans Rudel, who was so good at killing tanks with his Stuka, was awarded a new, high level award invented just for him.....destroyed over 600 tanks, but flew over 2000 missions (against land targets). That would give him about a one third chance to kill a tank.

So in a particular game, if you have a Hans Rudel flying, you may wonder why over a 2 day game, he only killed 3 tanks...and think that is quite low.

The same probably applies to artillery. Artillery was a big killer in WW2. It probably wasn't firing hour after hour the way we do in the games, but was probably grouped into more effective fires at key points of the day. Instead, the game lets us fire it when we want (assuming it is available), but does less damage per strike....but probably does the amount of total damage it should over the course of the battle.

Where the system seems to break down (in my mind), is the concentration of fire you can do. For example, the enemy is advancing on your positions, but due to visibility, you can only see a few units....so they get the full brunt of all the artillery in range that you can fire. Or the enemy has a key unit you want to disrupt (like an engineer), so you shoot all your artillery at that one unit.

That's what I think the alternative rules help alleviate.

---

This just made me think of something:

I remember reading somewhere that the Germans used to pre-register artillery on their own defensive positions..and, especially against the Americans who were particularly lazy and wouldn't dig in (right away), fire after being forced to retreat.