Needs improvement - reformation of HQ units

cavalry corps · 01-06-2009, 06:50 AM,

Liquid Sky Wrote:Of course, when playing against a human, there is some control. Since HQ's are worth a lot of VP's they are usually not destroyed en mass, and I scratch my head to try and remember if I have ever lost a corp/Army/front HQ since they are usually pretty far back from the front lines, and can easily move back to get away from trouble...

Not in Minsk 44
I have been playing these game aong time have never lost an axis Army HQ. In this PBEM I lost several and in the end AGC HQ itself in Minsk ... horrible

cavalry corps · 01-06-2009, 06:52 AM,

Ricky B Wrote:Okay, thanks Michael. Your thoughts make a lot of sense, and if there isn't an issue with them just magically appearing as this thread seemed to imply, then a change to existing behaviour would potentially make sense. I think the HQs regenerating with subordinate units was based on them providing HQ elements to help man the HQ, or maybe a rallying point for survivors, which makes sense in some cases, but having an HQ reform at a parent HQ or the highest (I like the parent HQ myself) also makes sense, implying the unit is reformed from rear area elements.

OJW, if you are really seeing enemy HQs popping up in your rear, by themselves, that needs passed along by your opponent if possible as it shouldn't happen and in tests I ran, as I stated, it won't happen either - so if it is there is something specific about it causing that to happen which needs tracked down. Again, I ran a couple of tests and did NOT have any HQs come back if all their subordinate units were destroyed - that was over a 20 turn test that I ran a few times, of course a 144 turns could potentially be different although that is unlikely.

Liquid Sky, agreed unless the vast bulk of units are pocketed, I think the mass extinction of the high level HQs is more a player use issue normally, but sometimes they get trapped and there is nothing to do about it then - as opposed to using them to help plug weak spots in the line.

Rick

Ricky
Not sure about the magical side but I am glad you agree maybe deputy HQ should only re ppear at the parent HQ if that is on the map
If you like you can see the file , I think there are about 5 or more Corps HQ well behind the Soviet lines all were reformed there - sems abit silly to me
M
Michael

**Ricky B** · 01-06-2009, 02:00 PM,

Hi Michael,

I don't think I need the save game now thanks! I read Ed's summary of the situation so I have a good idea of what is happening, which does seem to follow the rules with the HQs appearing with existing subordinate units.

I can see both sides of the HQ regeneration, both under the existing rules and your proposed change. Not sure what I think is best but probably lean toward the existing method although not idea in all situations.

I think that in the short term, an HQ unit gets destroyed then an ad hoc HQ will be thrown together wherever there are assets available, which will typically be in with the subordinate units. That is what happens now, and what I would expect to see with say a day or so of the HQ being destroyed.

On the other hand, I see your proposal as being what would happen in the longer term, say 3-4 days, where the higher formations would realize that the HQ was destroyed and work on building up a new command staff.

Anyway, based on the need for one or the other - I don't see how to make it random between the two, or fit one or the other of the situations I mention above, I woudl tend toward the current method where as best I know the HQ randomly reappears with any subordinate unit. It is an emergency and the player would not have any control over the area of appearance at first, it would be a random group of officers and men stepping up to keep things running as best they can.

Maybe if there was an ability for the next higher HQ to try to reform the lost HQ at player request with some kind of random chance of success, after it has reappeared as normal, that would probably work to meet what you want and what makes sense to me in the longer term, but I don't see much bang for the buck from the change - yes it would be a nice piece of chrome but the situations where it would be useful are very rare I think - I don't think I have ever had a significant problem with this ever, maybe just once or twice over the years???

Regards
Rick

cavalry corps · 01-06-2009, 06:01 PM,

Dear All

It seems that HQ units in the game are performing as intended

They are reforming on component units of their organisation although that sometimes means a corps and Divisional HQ ends up with an inf co a long way from the front

You can only use these HQ units for gamey purposes like air spotting or trying to seize VP locations. I would have like however to continue to use these Corps HQ during the game to attach units to ( that is what sparked my original post ) .

Looking at the map almost at the end of the game it looks a bit odd to see many corps HQ units having reformed on subordinate units wandering around the map.

I just felt that an HQ was better reforming on its parent HQ rather than on any unit within its remaining organisation. However I also see that an isolated organisation no matter how small may generate an HQ - KG style I suppose

As I said before Glenn and Edward have looked at the file and the game system is functioning normally.

Michael

Glenn Saunders · (This post was last modified: 01-07-2009, 12:16 PM by Glenn Saunders.)

cavalry corps Wrote:You can only use these HQ units for gamey purposes like air spotting or trying to seize VP locations.

....and for that matter you can use any unit for gamey purposes. Why couldn't a HQ be used for Spotting Air Mission? But HQ cannot Attack so they can't seize an objective from a unit of a single Gun, Vehicle or Man - so the rule of thumb for this would be to garrison captured Objectives if you are overruning enemy units.

In this case I German lost the game and the few HQs in the russian Rear had not captured any objectives.

Quote:I would have like however to continue to use these Corps HQ during the game to attach units to ( that is what sparked my original post ) .

Nothing in the rules of the HQ location to prevent this! Just wait for the Midnight turn

Quote:Looking at the map almost at the end of the game it looks a bit odd to see many corps HQ units having reformed on subordinate units wandering around the map.

There were three Corps HQs that I saw and only one had no unit attached to it. Although there was a Division HQ with some units nearby that could be attached to it on the next midnight turn.

Quote:I just felt that an HQ was better reforming on its parent HQ rather than on any unit within its remaining organisation.

....and the design is that the unit with the destroyed HQ is taken over by surviving units of the division (or formation) at a location randomly selected but ON a hex with subordinate Units. So a Corps HQ is generated on a combat units form one of the units in the Corps.

I think what happened in the case of this Minsk game is many units were overrun and left in the enemy rear. When the HQ anywhere on the map it was regenerated at a hex where units of that formation was located which is how the game has always worked.

Quote: However I also see that an isolated organisation no matter how small may generate an HQ - KG style I suppose

We must be careful how the term ISOLATION is used here - the units that spanned these HQs as far as I can tell were NOT Isolated. There were a few units which were Isolated - that is cut off where they could not trace a line of hexes free of enemy ZOC to a Supply source. The units Michael is referrng to are behind the liines - cut off - but not Isolated and the game has no way to determine which units are on what side of the Lines.

Most of the units and HQs in question were in the rear - behind the action but not marked with the label on the unit Window "ISOLATED"

And the Rules for HQ regeneration says:
"Headquarters units that have been eliminated are eligible to be restored on a subsequent turn. This is automatically determined at the beginning of the player turn and reported in the Command Dialog of the Main Program. The probability that an HQ will be restored is based on the Quality of the unit with higher Quality units having a higher probability. An HQ unit that has been eliminated is eligible to be restored on each player turn following its elimination. However, the HQ does not perform its functions on the first turn it is restored. The HQ unit is restored with a randomly determined strength and is Disrupted on the first turn it is restored."

...nothing about a minimum size of the surviving units or anything. You see units without an HQ are penalized and so regenerating the HQ is an important game function. So it is important to have an HQ and a chain of command or those units without it suffer. If that were the case and units could never pass a command test because HQs were not regenerated, I would expect players would complain.

What we have here is an odd situation where the German Army has been decimated and the game engine is is trying to maintain the HQ structure after the German army of 240000 men or 40000 point has been reduced to 8000 men and 2600 points. So you can see where the game engine has created a situation which is a bit abnormal.