Historical Q

[Turner]

I know, a bit offtopic but I'm very anxious to get a answer to this question.

Which Wehrmacht and/or SS units were involved in the fighting around and in the actual city of Smolensk in the fall '43.

I've searched but not found any detailed info.

Thanks.


PS. Is there any PzC scenario covering this particular battle? DS.

[sergio]

I'm not an expert on that campaign but... the units deployed there where Army Group Center's units if i'm not wrong. That is: 3 PzAOK, 4 AOK, 9 AOK and 2 AOK.

3 PzAOK on August 5th 1943 was:
XXXXIII.AK 83.ID, 205.ID
LIX.AK 291.ID, 263.ID
II.LwfK 6.LwfD, 3.LwfD, 4.LwfD, 2.LwfD
VI.AK 330.ID, 206.ID, 87.ID
on September 24th 1943 was:
II.LwfK 6.LwfD, 3.LwfD, 4.LwfD, 2.LwfD
VI.AK 87.ID, 206.ID, T.14.ID

4 AOK on August 5th 1943 was:
XII.AK 268.ID, 260.ID, 267.ID
LVI.PzK 131.ID, 14.ID, 321.ID
IX.AK 35.ID, 252.ID, 342.ID
XXXIX.PzK 113.ID, 337.ID
XXVII.AK 256.ID, 197.ID, 52.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt: 36.Pz.Gren.Div., 56.ID
on September 24th 1943 was:
IX.AK 39.ID, T.35.ID, 252.ID, 330.ID, 342.ID, 78.Sturm-Div., 1.SS-Brig."Reichsführer-SS", T.18.Pz.Gren.Div., T.14.ID (mot.)
XXXIX.PzK 337.ID, T.18.Pz.Gren.Div., T.35.ID, T.113.ID
XXVII.AK 256.ID, 197.ID, 52.ID, 25.Pz.Gren.Div., 246.ID, T.113.ID, 18.Pz.Div.

9 AOK on August 5th 1943 was:
XXXXVII.PzK 383.ID, 216.ID, 292.ID, 6.ID
XXXXVI.PzK 31.ID, 7.ID, 258.ID, 102.ID, 72.ID
XX.AK 86.ID, 45.ID, 137.ID, 251.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt: 2.Pz.Div., 262.ID, T.4.Pz.Div., 208.ID
on September 24th 1943 was:
XXIII.AK 296.ID, 134.ID, 253.ID, 299.ID, 383.ID
Gr.Harpe (XXXXI.PzK) Gr.Greiner: 267.ID, 268.ID, 39.ID
XII.AK: 26.ID, 262.ID, 56.ID, 260.ID, 131.ID
LV.AK 211.ID, 321.ID, T.129.ID, 20.Pz.Div., 110.ID, 707.ID

2 AOK on August 5th 1943 was:
XIII.AK 377.ID, 82.ID, T.327.ID, 340.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt: T.327.ID
on September 24th 1943 was:
XXXV.AK 216.ID, 292.ID
XXXXVI.PzK T.137.ID, 251.ID, 7.ID, 221.Sich.Div., T.12.Pz.Div., T.2.Pz.Div., 86.ID
XX.AK 31.ID, 6.ID, 102.ID, 4.Pz.Div., T.137.ID, 45.ID
der Armee direkt unterstellt: LVI.PzK, 5.Pz.Div.


The info is from http://www.diedeutschewehrmacht.de/
There you can also find the Armee troops (pioneer, etc)

[Turner]

Thanks... met a vet the other day who told me he fought in the city of Smolensk in sept 43, but he did not want to tell me with which unit he served. He referred to that particular combat as if it was defining his experience of the war, so I wanted to get an idea of what types of units were involved and the characteristics of the fighting. He was a officer no doubt.

[sergio]

Because of the deployment of 4 AOK before Bagration start I supose that it was this army the one defending Smolensk. There where some SS units in the 4 AOK: 1.SS-Brig."Reichsführer-SS".

From wikipedia:

The 1 SS Infantry Brigade (mot) was a unit of the German Waffen SS formed from former concentration camp guards for service in the Soviet Union behind the main front line during the Second World War. They conducted anti-partisan operations in the rear of the advancing German army and were involved in the extermination of the Jewish population. They also filled gaps in the front line when called upon in emergencies.
They were moved into the front line in September to reinforce the 25th Panzergrenadier Division, which was fighting in the Smolensk Gomel sector. Smolensk was abandoned on the 24 September and the Brigade reported that during the fighting they had lost 215 killed in action, 1172 wounded and 77 missing.

[sergio]

with a bit more info maybe it could be done a "Suvarov Operation" in the Smolensk area with Minsk'44

[sergio]

no, it's not possible... :(

[Turner]

Okay, thanks for the info. It's not unlikely he was SS, but then again maybe he wasn't. I can't know for sure, he just said he did not remember and I interpreted that as he didn't want to tell. So I don't know it could be either of.

This action took place late '43, would it not be possible to make a scenario using the Smolensk '41 map?

[sergio]

It's possible that the vet in fact forgot the details. If he was seventeen on 1943 now he must be 83 years old!! and probably most of his life he tried to forget his war experiences...

Yes, it's possible to design that scenario on Smolensk'41. The map covers from Vyazma to Smolensk and then to Orsha. More map than it's needed.

[Vaevictis]

Wikipedia is ok but don't forget it has nowhere near the validity of a researched scholarly source... you might be reading anybody's view until someone who knows more bothers to correct it.

[Turner]

Yeah. Many thanks for the input guys, much much appreciated.

Oh, and I just bought a laptop so I can do turns at work. It will increase my turn rate, I think my opponents will be happy or... perhaps not.