Soapbox and Pot Stir.....Bunkers and Pill Boxes

[Mike Abberton]

Earl,

I agree that CM won't be everyone's cup of tea. It's a squad level/individual vehicles game on a fairly small scale, map-wise. Most maps are on the order of 2 km x 2km or smaller.

Also, ammunition loadouts are represented and no resupply is possible during a scenario. So the length of scenarios is pretty much limited to 60 turns or so and that is stretching it, 30-45 is more realistic if combat starts right off in the beginning turns.

Actually that brings up a good point, which is that, on average, as game scale increases (i.e. bigger default units, hexes and turn lengths) abstraction increases as well. As you move further away from each firing action = one shot, the game engine has to abstract the results somewhat.

So in CS, for example, I assume that each vehicle in a platoon uses ammunition evenly and each can always fire each turn while in supply. If out of supply, half fire.

In CM, where I have individual vehicles, it is rare that each vehicle in a platoon maintains an even ammo loadout with the others. Typically one vehicle finds itself in a good firing spot and shoots more often than the others. That vehicle may actually run out of one ammo type altogether and have to pull back. If it was firing HE, it might now move to provide AT cover, while another takes over the HE work.

Is the CM model more "realistic", probably. But that level of realism is beneath the abstraction level of CS. Neither one is really better or worse (except from a personal preference point of view) just different.

Mike

[K K Rossokolski]

I would like to steer us back to bunkers and pillboxes, chaps....and realism (although that fits anywhere).
I think arty spotting and ammo levels don't quite fit here, although both are valid and interesting points. How about a separate thread/s?

[Dan Caviness]

I'm with KK on this one boys.
The topic was bunkers and pillboxes.

While I have been tried in absentia for saluting the game's unrealism and my willingness to swim in it's sea of unrealistic hallucination....I did try to make a point about KK's original post that I thought was not only realistic but added to the game's playability...which was that some if not all bunkers should have restricted LOS based on what they were built to spot and where they are located.

My thanks to those who recognized that instead of marching immediately to the crucifixion...

Regards KK.

Dan

[Dan Caviness]

I've received a pm protesting my last post.
That's how you do it guys, via pm.
I respect that and wish to respond publicy to make amends.

My apologies for the above.
The boys and I were out rather late last night and for some reason I logged on and started typing.

At no point was I attempting to equate myself or any of my beliefs with Christianity, the Holy Bible, or anything else remotely religious in nature.
Barabbas maybe...certainly not Christ.
No...even that may be misconstrued...more like Spartacus...complete with a stage prop so my feet didn't hurt.

At no point did I seriously consider myself "tried in absentia".
If so I saw no firing squad...so my Captain's Mast was survived...(:O)

While it's impossible to impart "tongue in cheek" to a post, that was in jest and my real "mission" was to try and get back on topic.

That topic being bunkers and pillboxes.
Assuming it's safe to crawl out of mine, I'll summate, and make my final apology on the subject.

LOS from bunkers could possibly be handled by designers being able to assign LOS during placement. I am thinking perhaps hexsides, as in 60 deg, 120 deg, 180 deg, etc, with 360 degree visibility (the current norm) as your maximum?

Regards,

Dan

[Skryabin]

P.S. If you'd like to see a different model of artillery, I'd suggest trying out the Combat Mission games. CM's "we-go" simultaneous turn resolution and shorter scale (explicitly 1-minute turns with no ambiguity) allows a much different interpretation of artillery fire with varying command delays and accuracy by artillery level, type, nationality and troop quality, plus spotting rounds and the ability to correct fire as it drops.

WOW, there are 3D hi-end wargames!

Were you talking about this series? In Russian they call it Front Line. I am not really interesting in modern warfare (Combat Mission: Shock Force) at the moment but this one I am going to try I think. Just will need a new graphic card I guess :chin: You do one minute turn and then... watch a movie :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1g1ADNEcM

Comes out October 24, 2009.

Thanks for info,

Dmitriy

[Mike Abberton]

The original Combat Missions (CMx1) were World War II games. There were 3 of them, one for the Western European Campaign, one for the Eastern Front, and the third for the North African/Italian campaign. They can still be purchased.

The newer version of Combat Mission (CMx2) includes Shock Force and its add-ons which are set in a theoretical war between Syria and the US/UK (so far). There are plans for a Normandy version of CMx2 which is supposed to be out late this year or early next year (I think).

They are 3D games, but I am not 100% sure I would call the CMx1 games hi-end, at least not compared to the typical first-person-shooter or Battlefront type game. There are a couple other sort of similar series (Theater of War and Panzer Commander). I haven't tried those, and the reviews are generally mixed.

CMx1 has quite a following at the Blitz, and if you wanted to try it out, I am sure someone would give you a game. There are also demos of CMx1 available over at Battlefront.com, although I think those are single-player only.

Hope it helps.
Mike