F40 help!

[Tortue Agile]

[jonnymacbrown]

[Tortue Agile]

Hi Herr Von Egan,

I am not sure that the taking of the Channel ports (alone) would have been a major defeat for the Allied.

What made this battle a victory for the German was the destruction (or retreat to UK) of the best troops in Belgium (mainly BEF, 1st Army and 7th Army) which left the allied without reserve for the second part of the campaign (not covered by the scenario).
The victory level is used to compensate for the loss of the Belgians and weak french units in some way. And if the Germans want to win the campaign they have to take as much objective as possible.

I am not sure that your strategy of puting the allied in the north would save them. At least in the south the terrain is not easy and the woods help the defense against Aerial attacks and would slowdown the movement of the German fast units.
In the north it would be a very different story: killing ground for the Pz Divisions and aerial attacks with tremendous effects on the Allied units.

[jonnymacbrown]

[Tortue Agile]

The BEF started to come in France and prepare for the war many months before the German offensive. Beside the port in the Channel they could have used Brest for exemple, it was a big military port.

Now, as usual the scenario editor is open to every body and I am sure that a ton of people will be happy to play your version of the campaign with NEW objectives.

But, to go back to the plan of Dog Soldier, I think it is higly risky and impossible for the French and British troops to go in the north without danger.

IF, I follow this particular plan with the actuals setting, I try to move north the maximum of my troops while leaving the south open to Germans attacks therefore I will be opening the game to an encirclement of the Allies by the Germans (it will be historical). With a lot of freedom of movement for the Germans and a lot of pain for the allied to move to the north (and where exactly? behind Bruxelles?).

If we put some bigs objectives in the south, I think it will miss the purpose of the operation on the German side: encercling and/or destroying the allied armies.
I don't see the Germans moving on Paris with a bunch of divisions in their back. They did certainly remember the bad surprise of 1914 (Marne) and were already under a lot of stress during the May 40 offencive, always fearing counter attacks. ;)

By the way, I didn't know I was your dear Tortue

[jonnymacbrown]

[Ricky B]

Maybe you have a different idea than we have of what makes up insignificant objectives in a game. In almost everything I have worked on, I have tried to make sure the objectives and losses both play a role in victory, if they mattered in the final analysis of the battle. In this campaign game, with over 50,000 pts in objectives, if the German player reaches the sea and clears the most significant ports there, they will have seized most of the other objectives on the way. Thus, he will hold say 45,000 pts of objectives, for a solid draw.

If losses for both sides are equal at this point, I would say this would be a draw, NOT a victory for the Germans, because they would not have been able to continue their offensive to conquer the rest of France for quite awhile, in comparison with history where they took the ports and inflicted heavy losses on the allied forces, much heavier than they suffered. It was the destruction or removal from the OOB of the cream of the allied armies, and the loss of huge amounts of manpower, that was the major victory for the Germans, not the conquest of the ports.

So both play a role in a German victory, and I believe the objectives and victory conditions reflect the importance of each. Reach the sea but cripple the German army and it isn't a victory. Wipe out a lot of allied forces but don't reach the sea, and it would be difficult to believe it would have resulted in victory, but it is possible in the game. Wipe out 2/3 of the allied army, reach about half way to the sea, and lose less than a third of the Allied losses and the German player will have achieved at least a minor win, I believe.

As to abandoning the south, it might work in the game. My guess would be, after playing a few campaigns of it, that the extremely long flank back to the sea would be more vulnerable than a north south defense line. When (if) I have time, I would be happy to play a game against an allied player that tries abandoning the south and fighting only in the north to see what happens.

Rick

[Tortue Agile]

Yes, the BEF could have used Brest in lieu of the Channel ports, which the last time I looked, was at the northern most point of the Bay of Biscay, or a full-on ocean voyage from England. But they weren't using Brest for supply on May 10, 1940 and why should they have? They were using the Channel ports, with ferries as transport, with the easy one-way trip of 12 miles (Dover to Calais). Now, in defeat, the port would be Brest, an ocean voyage of 300 miles from Plymouth, using ocean-going transport, then another trip on mountain roads of 300 miles, all to re-establish supply, and all before the next stage of the German offensive, in say 2 weeks.

1st I am not as stubborn that I seem to be , sometimes I have a tendancy to go to fast on the conclusion forgetting that others people are not in my brain and don't know my "train of though".
2nd Brest is in Brittany and was and still is a major military port with a good railroad system connecting it to the rest of the country (and no mountain road), I am talking about Brest because it was used (along with others ports) after Dunkirk to send back the French troops who escaped from the Dunkirk Pocket and it is about 1/2 a day from Plymouth at that time (see this interesting link, a british soldier experience going to France from Plymouth to Brest, journey done in June 1940, with the British sending reinforcement to save Paris after the loss of the ports on the Channel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stori...8073.shtml).
We could also add Cherbourg to the list (even closer to GB).

I don't try to impose on you my views, don't worry. :cool2:
To finish,I don't think that the loss of the ports made it a victory for the Germans but it was the loss of the MOST professional and best equiped armies of the allies.
After the 1st phase of the Campaign the French were trying to recreate a frontline on the Somme but the lack of trainned divisions and materiel made it impossible to hold anything for a long time.

If you look closer at the German planning, you will see that they were trying to achieve a Cannae victory (encirclement). That is why they didn't go directly to Paris (bad memories like I said before about the 1914 campaign) which would have make them sensitive to any counter-attack on their flank... Imagine, the Germans running toward Paris and leaving the BEF, 1st Army and 7th Army the freedom to attack their line of supply.

Finally I don't have my mind maid up without sounding facts.
A good reading about the beginning of the Campaign available in English now and that was extensively used during the making of the game:
Blitzkrieg Legend by Karl-Heinz Frieser

Tortue Agile

[jonnymacbrown]

Ok thanks guys for taking the time to give a detailed response. I know you realize I only want the best possible outcome. Anyway, with the new oob what is then needed to quickly make the multi-strategy scenario workable? All I need to do is work out a new VP schedule and presto, it's playable, no? Is that the only missing piece? You've convinced me to give it a go.Thanks, JE