Treebursts and you

~~The Coil~~ · 12-02-2006, 04:07 PM,

Commented on this in another thread, would be interested to see other's opinions:

I've heard the 'mortars against troops in trees shreds them b/c of the treebursts' claim many times, began to wonder how true this really is. I ran a few tests: Ten American 81mm mortars, each shelling one rifle platoon of Germans sitting on a TRP. Each platoon was on its own 3x3 'pedestal' to prevent it from retreating out of the mortar fire. Ran ten trials (so 100 mortars firing) with the Germans in foxholes in each of 3 terrains - open ground, brush, and scattered trees. Results as follows:

Open Ground: 210 total casualties
Brush: 218 total casualties
Scattered Trees: 196 total casualties

Seems like maybe mortars aren't any deadlier on troops in trees than troops out of them. Maybe they are more effective in the sense that they don't lose killing power between open and cover the way small arms fire does, but they don't seem to be any more effective in trees than in open/brush...

Liebchen · 12-02-2006, 04:30 PM,

Just curious: Since you went to the trouble of setting up that test, why didn't you also do denser trees? Why only scattered? Your test was, after all, to test "tree burst"...

~~The Coil~~ · 12-02-2006, 04:56 PM,

Hehe...Liebchen, you raise a good point. I think because in the immediate context of the previous thread, scattered trees were referred to, so I just sorta had them in my head. Then I got tired of running tests... Just for grins, I went back and ran it with normal trees - 191 casualties. Not much lower than open ground, but enough to make me question whether treebursts really matter much at all.

Liebchen · 12-02-2006, 05:04 PM,

Another myth busted...

Tried it with regular off-board, yet? I'm curious as to whether it would be any different.

ATCS · 12-02-2006, 05:49 PM,

So Mark, you're telling me I'm wasting my mortars on you while you're in the trees? ;)

McIvan · 12-02-2006, 08:26 PM,

Weeeelllll....dunno if I've so convinced. Normally scattered trees would substantially reduce casualties. With treebursts there are less casualties, but not many less. So I think the treebursts are still having an effect....such that scattered trees with treebursts is not that much better than open ground.

Another way to test the difference is between normal and proximity fused US 105mm and 155mm arty. All of those are what amounts to "treebursts", and iirc they make a lot of difference agaisnt troops outside of buildings.

~~The Coil~~ · (This post was last modified: 12-03-2006, 03:14 AM by The Coil.)

Der Kuenstler · 12-03-2006, 03:24 AM,

What may need to be tested is how fast the men panic or abandon a gun - there may not be the casualties but how fast before they break?

Ralph Metzger · 12-03-2006, 10:08 AM,

I never really considered the actual kills due to arty fire. I haven't done tests, but I think that the treeburst effect puts the enemy's heads down very well. I've always felt that area fire a few light mortars next to enemy in woods while advancing squads on the enemy position helps the advancing squads greatly as the enemy goes heads down and doesn't fire well at my attackers. I have not had this effect with enemy in foxholes in the open. That always seemed to require HMGs or guns to get their heads down and KEEP them down.