Bridge Building tricks

[jonnymacbrown]

"So we inadventantly created this loop hole and John felt it was better to continue with the design intent but just close the Gamey trick."

When I made the decision to go with battalions, I didn't think of it as a gamy tactic. At the time I had two full battalions building a bridge over the same river for what seemed to be an eternity with two infantry divisions waiting in line to cross. The problem as I see it, is that a bridge unit's chances of successfully building a bridge don't increase as time goes bye. So the bridge may be completed after 2 hours of work, but even after ten-twenty hours of contruction, the probability remains the same 30%. von Egan :whis:

[FM WarB]

John,
That's a good point; I suppose hours on the job should count for something. See my post above, about the bridge class issue.
(humming the tune referred to in the Panzer Campaigns quiz thread)
Warren

[Dog Soldier]

Well if you want to include a factor for "hours on the job" Then you will need to consider the Morale rating of the engineers. How will you account for "bridge engineers" with special equipment versus the bridge/mine engineers that build bridges from what ever is at hand?

These would all involve some code changes in the engine and you will have to convince John Tiller. Are you attending Tillercon II?

Bottom line I think Glenn's solution is the best. Bridge building is too darn easy in games where it is critical like F40 and MG44. Only the games where you would have to bridge a full hex river (Dnepr in some K44 scenarios and the Waal in MG44) present the attacker with a problem of getting units across in boats to cover the engineers. Hex side rivers are so easily crossed they do not present much of an obstacle due to the 3 co's trick.

Dog Soldier

[Glenn Saunders]

So the bridge may be completed after 2 hours of work, but even after ten-twenty hours of contruction, the probability remains the same 30%.

This is one of those arguements that sounds ok on the surface but I understand does not hold up statistically. Now I don't know much about statistics, but this is what I get from John Tiller

where p=probability

Using p = 50%, 50% of arrivals will be in 1 turns, 90% will be in = 3
Using p = 30%, 50% of arrivals will be in 1 turns, 90% will be in = 6
Using p = 10%, 50% of arrivals will be in 6 turns, 90% will be in = 21

...so with 30% over six turn there is 90% chance of the event occurring. So the numbers can tell you the story however you want it too.

Glenn

[Glenn Saunders]

[FM WarB]

Glenn,
Brian Jennings, whose Wacht am Rhein scenario you posted at your Panzer Campaigns website proposes just such, more complicatedly as a Gentlemens' Rule for German engineers in the Bulge. So as not to screw up existing games and provide players with a choice, why not have varying engineer bridge building capability as an Optional rule?
I dont think that a player seeing engineer units bridge class 1, 2, or 3 (light, medium, heavy) will have too much trouble figuring out what that means. A bit of realism that wont stifle playability, imho.
Merry Christmas
Warren

[JonS1]

[Jazman]

...is something that would add unnecessary complexity to the series without adding much in the way of play value.

You underestimate the geek factor for many of us engineers around here.

[jonnymacbrown]

As for the circumstances which prompted my note: Had the light bridge option been available, my two infantrty divisions wouldn't have been waiting for the heavy bridge that was taking two full battalions 12 hours to build. Those rivers in the Ardennes/Belgium theater aren't exactly Denieper size, more like large streams; hell, even the Rhine isn't that big. 1940 military organizations were, and please correct me if I'm wrong, able to cross essentially tiny rivers without much problem. Running a foot bridge across a river that's 50 yards wide shouldn't take all day. von Egan

[jonnymacbrown]

"This is one of those arguements that sounds ok on the surface but I understand does not hold up statistically. Now I don't know much about statistics, but this is what I get from John Tiller

where p=probability

Using p = 50%, 50% of arrivals will be in 1 turns, 90% will be in = 3
Using p = 30%, 50% of arrivals will be in 1 turns, 90% will be in = 6
Using p = 10%, 50% of arrivals will be in 6 turns, 90% will be in = 21

...so with 30% over six turn there is 90% chance of the event occurring. So the numbers can tell you the story however you want it too."

This isn't quite true Glen, which in terms of math means it isn't true at all. 30% of arrivals will be in one turn if the odds are 30%, and in every turn thereafter, the odds remain 30%. von Egan :rolleyes::smoke: