Minsk 44 No fixed Campaign game wanted

[Brammer]

I am looking for an axis player for a campaign game. Since there are about 23000 victory points in objectives, I would like to change this to about 5500 plus the exit hexes. Drop me a line if you are interested in talking about trying this out.

I feel it is way to easy for the russian to win a campaign game with the existing objective point structure.

[Engelbrekt]

I can't play you but I would like to say that it is not the objective VP:s that are the problem. Rather the massive German losses that quickly give the Russians a victory without being anywhere near Minsk or the other major objectives. So another approach would be to raise the victory levels.

[Brammer]

Game taken.

I think you can approach this in 2 different way. Raise the vitory levels as you suggest. Or reduce the objectives on the map.

I am involved in another Minsk game and at turn 40 or so, I (as the russian) have not made a major breakthru anywhere along the line but I have 8800+ in objectives and a draw already. If the 8800 points were removed I would have a major loss. I would prefer to elliminate all the objective hexes except for the goals the russians had in mind. Minsk as the prize and other intermediate towns along the way.

After all the goal of the russian attack was the destruction of army group center not capture the towns. So it seems to me that you should get rid of objective hexes except for some really big ones.

[Engelbrekt]

If the 8800 points were removed I would have a major loss. I would prefer to elliminate all the objective hexes except for the goals the russians had in mind. Minsk as the prize and other intermediate towns along the way.

But it would also leave no reason for the German to stay and hold terrain. They would escape fast and far, contrary to history and Hitlers orders.

After all the goal of the russian attack was the destruction of army group center not capture the towns.

Depends on how you see it, from what I have read the goal of the Russians was the destruction of the enemy through the capture of various important objectives. If I were to change the scenario I would make a Russian major victory impossible without the capture of Minsk itself. A Russian minor victory would be the capture of the bigger cities along the Berezina river and lots of killed Germans. A draw would be slightly below this, say if the German player manages to escape with many divisions. Anything else should be a Russian loss. In the game I'm playing (historical campaign) we got a minor victory around turn 30 and it's only in the beginning of the offensive. Maybe your way is better, but I would raise the VP levels and a lot too.

[Brammer]

"But it would also leave no reason for the German to stay and hold terrain. They would escape fast and far, contrary to history and Hitlers orders."

But that is the whole point of the situation. Being stuck to history is not what I consider an accurate view of what may have happened or what a game should offer. Hitlers orders doomed the germans to a pointless defensive battle that they were in no shape to win. This gives the germans a lot more leeway in defending against the attack. Also the objective hexes I would retain are still significant. They would be Slutsk, Minsk, Beshenkovichi, Mogilen, Orsha, Bobruysk, Borisov, Lepel, Marina Gorka, Dokshitsy and Ploshchenitsy.

And by the way running is no way to get away from the russians. Once the germans are in open terrain their losses mount very very fast. And the russian has lots of mobile troops to deal with a fleeing german.

Just one persons view of the situation.

[Hadge]

Hi all

An interesting variant for "someone" to put togather, would be a scenario similar to S42's "SS to the rescue", incorporating revised victory conditions, bringing on as reinforcements those German units previously sent south in anticipation of a Soviet southern thrust, plus others as deemed potentially available

A further twist, given the high degree of Soviet deception activity prior to "Bagration", would be variable initial positioning and release for the Pliev and Oslikovski Cav/Mech groups, the 5th Gds Tk Army, plus 1st & 2nd Gds Tk Corps and 9th Tk Corps.

That would make a really interesting variation on an already excellent, if not time consuming, game.

Cheers

Chris

[Sgt Fury]

I'm working on exactly that scenario. I should be done pretty soon ( a week or so probably). :-)

Fury

[Elxaime]

Is the stock scenario that foregone a conclusion?

I have only played it as Soviets (twice) but in doing so I could think of a few things the Wehrmacht could do to give the Red Army a few grey hairs.

You may be right on VP levels though. There are a couple of other PzC games that have a similar problem (e.g. K43) where the attacking side can usually win more than enough VP for a major victory by destroying defending units without paying much attention to the VP hexes. Given that much depends on relative player skills, setting these is a hard task for a designer.