Opinion Piece - Myths and Realities of the Great Patriotic War

[D-Day_Dodger]

[Al]

As my history professor used to say about some of my less than stellar work, "too cliche-ridden". I started to count how many times he used the word "Ivan", but quit after ten.

Interestingly, during the war the Soviet soldier was portrayed in the West much as Soviet propoganda portrayed them - as brave patriotic men fighting the enemy. Only after and with the onset of the Cold War did this view change. The pendulum of history does swing wildly at times.

[McIvan]

It's quite a mean spirited opinion piece, derogatory to both US and Russian audiences equally as fools and/or ignorant. Sneering, almost, in its pretentious self-importance. I was going to say so last night but thought I should let it settle and re-read in the morning, but it still reads the same. So some Russians soldiers were cowards, rapists and thieves in an army of millions? Who'd have thought? Nice cheap shot to throw in the US Army rapes. They might have happened, but why bring them up?

I'm pretty sure it understates both British and US war dead. I was also less than impressed at the way the author disingenuously uses total deaths/wounds/captures AND illlness on the German side and only (understated) deaths for the Brits/US, so as to misleadingly maximise the difference. Not to mention discarding the Commonwealth dead or those of Denmark, Belgium, Holland, France, Polish troops fighting in the West, the Brazillians, and all the other nationalities in the Western ETO.

Nice touch to denigrate D-Day as a knee-jerk reaction from fright at possible Russian dominance. Classy.

I think also that most people who have any knowledge of WWII at all realise that the Russians did the lion's share against the Germans. I certainly don't have enough knowledge to comment on whether the Saving Private Ryan myth is prevalent in the US. This guy might even be essentially right, cheap shots aside, but it still leaves a sour taste in my mouth and I'd be hesitant to take anything he said at face value.

[jonnymacbrown]

"I think also that most people who have any knowledge of WWII at all realise that the Russians did the lion's share against the Germans."

This is surely true among the inhabitants of this forum, especially PzC. However, among the general populace, I don't think so. I know when I went to school, there wasn't much good said about the Soviet Union or "Russia" as they called it even then. "We" won WWII and in a large degree they were right: The USA emerged as the world's dominant super power as a result of it. von ege

[schnurbart]

lol...stalin won ww2 tho it was just a partial victory. at least the euro side of it. Besides the only myths that really need shattering are the ones that say Germany woud have won accept their fuher turned on kiev and that the russian general staff was incopentant and most important that the 41 invasion of russia was a suprise to them.

[Periander]

I have to question just how well Russia would have fared if the US and UK hadn't kept the Russian population fed and their armies equipped.

Or if Hitler had a sudden attack of sanity and put a little more faith in Vlassov and all the other Russians who flocked to theGerman banner with the thought that they were helping to liberate their country. Hitler may have been fighting a crusade against bolshavism but if he'd sold it as a war of liberation ... well who knows.

Just to illustrate the point I've included a photo, it was taken in 1943 by a chap called Herbert Furbringer, an infantryman with the 9th SS, ended up ffighting in Russia, Normandy, Arnham, Hungary ... well you name it he was there ...

... anyway the picture. It's one of a series Mr Furbringer took during the prelude to relief attempt at Tarnopol (spelling?). It's of a Russian Orthodox Priest, he made a special trip to come and bless the German (SS!!!) troops on their way to battle ... and this in 1943.

[schnurbart]

I have to question just how well Russia would have fared if the US and UK hadn't kept the Russian population fed and their armies equipped.

Or if Hitler had a sudden attack of sanity and put a little more faith in Vlassov and all the other Russians who flocked to theGerman banner with the thought that they were helping to liberate their country. Hitler may have been fighting a crusade against bolshavism but if he'd sold it as a war of liberation ... well who knows.

Just to illustrate the point I've included a photo, it was taken in 1943 by a chap called Herbert Furbringer, an infantryman with the 9th SS, ended up ffighting in Russia, Normandy, Arnham, Hungary ... well you name it he was there ...

... anyway the picture. It's one of a series Mr Furbringer took during the prelude to relief attempt at Tarnopol (spelling?). It's of a Russian Orthodox Priest, he made a special trip to come and bless the German (SS!!!) troops on their way to battle ... and this in 1943.

certainly western allied help contributed to the overal pace of the last phase of the war with lots of tires and phone cable ...but any lend lease of base materials would have been of minimal effect espeacially since the russian system was still trying to lose thier flat footed penalty early on due to base political correctness of the idea of the soviet offensive.
Pavlov the great soviet panzer general sold to stalin a deployment of the frontier completely void of reality. Then suddenly france is gone and england pressed. By that time in early 41 when stalin caved and allowed a defensive plan but it was to late to just switch. The soviets using the south as the bulwork wrote off the forces in the bialostock salient hoping they would fight it out or try and escape their fate.
The dnepr river was chosen as the place where german tactics must breakdown beacause of poor combined arms cooperation along the flanks of the main blow..this strategy almost faild becasue of soviet communication problems and the germans were not expected to create a blow in all strategic directions so quickly.
Becasue of german command problems the dnepr defense turned out to work better then it might have and the strategic imbalance along the southern flank of AGC forced the higher comands to clear the flank problem before a moskow offensive could resume. Guderian even was in agreement.
That logical operation turned into a huge soviet blunder of gigantic proportion when stalin insisted on holding kiev firing zhukov as chief of staff becasue he would not back down.
But alas after the ukraine and the southwest front disapear. German staffs were rather hastey thinking moskow could fall by winter after the bryansk operation.
There is a lot about what hitler might have done against his very nature. Like consider political ramification of his race policy and his even worse tendancy to put off important decisions..
In my opinion Germany did not show up to the fight to win while russia meant serious business..Americas current war effort suffers from similar problems while i dont think her enemies intend on quitting in 18 months.
cheers*

[jonnymacbrown]

"I have to question just how well Russia would have fared if the US and UK hadn't kept the Russian population fed and their armies equipped."

This was one of the common myths aound the history that I was taught growing up in the USA. Actually the food was canned pork, the infamous Spam and it was just for the Red Army. The idea the the USA and UK fed the Russian population and equipped their armies is one of "our" patriotic myths."

"Or if Hitler had a sudden attack of sanity."

Hitler was a racist. He, and many people in that time, saw history in terms of a racial struggle for existence along Darwinian lines. The programs to exterminate Jews, Poles and Slavs, either by direct murder or through starvation, where in accordance with national plans centered about "biological" policies. The object was, as Hanna Arendt defined it, "a national state's attempt to direct and accelerate the forces of natural selction." The final result was to be the spontanious emegence of der Ubermensch, a racially pure new species that would literally have powers and abilities far beyond those of normal men, to borrow a phrase from 1950 science fiction, itself very often a product of the Nazi mythos. Hitler was insane, but his insanity was based on the some of the best and generally accepted scientific notions of his time and centered upon the creation of der Uermensch in his lifetime; and once you know this, Nazi racial policies, which always took precedence over military needs, even in the most dire situations, begin to make sense. von ege :whis:

[schnurbart]

Aye...take away the Maker of that hot babe you just snuck a look at and its all down hill from there. Similar results happen when folk think Her desighner on their side becasue..............................talking about darwen of coarse.

[Epoletov [SPR].]

Periander wrote :

I have to question just how well Russia would have fared if the US and UK hadn't kept the Russian population fed and their armies equipped.

To you such example of an estimation of fighting capacity of the USSR is probably known.

When foreigners have asked Stalin that is necessary that the USSR continued struggle against fascists they were afraid to hear that it will ask machine guns, planes, tanks.
Then it would become clear, that they will soon suffer defeat.
But Stalin has asked strategic military materials (ore) independently to make the weapon at the military factories evacuated for Urals Mountains.

Without the foreign help of the USSR all would win fascists but with greater blood.

Thanks for your help to us!

Or if Hitler had a sudden attack of sanity and put a little more faith in Vlassov and all the other Russians who flocked to theGerman banner with the thought that they were helping to liberate their country. Hitler may have been fighting a crusade against bolshavism but if he'd sold it as a war of liberation ... well who knows.

Hitler wished to destroy whole people, therefore it has received the adequate answer - to destroy Germans.

In the USSR was a lot of dissatisfied with the Soviet authority, but fascists have appeared even more terrible bestys!

During war Stalin has reconsidered a policy in relation to people.
The orthodox church (priests are returned from army) has been restored.
Memory of heroes of the last years - Dmitry Donskoj, Alexander Nevsky, Suvorov, Kutuzov has been returned. And in fact they were not workers, and belonged to a class of enslavers and oppressors. Awards in their honour have been created. Signs on distinction as in army of Russian empire ("pogons" on shoulders) are restored.

It is tragedy of Russian people, that the people offended by the Soviet authority went to be at war together with Germans against the brothers!

Stalin understood it and has drawn duly conclusions having corrected a rate of communist party.