Alternate Scenario fire values

Andrew · 05-02-2007, 04:58 PM,

Sounds pretty damn good to me.

Hank · 05-03-2007, 12:03 AM,

I play the Alt / McNamara scenario's exclusively now. If there's some tweeking needed, that's a good thing. But I feel they are more realistic than the stock settings.

Regarding Stugs ... i.e. assault guns, and other armor, I think of assaulting a little different now. I use Stugs with infy to assault all the time but differently from what you would think. The game mechanic of "assaulting", means something different to me from the tactical term "assaulting". I use the stugs and tanks to slug away at the target hex, set up my infy units to "assault", sometimes I continue plugging away with stugs and arty to softening them up, then I hit the resolve assault button.

To me the whole process I described is an assault. I rarely use stugs in direct assaults (from adjacent hexes). I agree they are not good choices and I think the history backs this up. Some tanks are good at assault ... thus their higher assault values. ... especially those handy little Flamethrower tanks ... :-)

IMHO, there are some artillery tubes that are more effective against armor but after reading some very good books on the 1ss PzDiv Hvy Pz unit, it was rare an artillery attack had a significant affect on their Tank units except to do repairable damage ... except in those rare instances of steel-on-steel hits. I would think larger 155's and the like would have more luck in upsetting a tank unit than a 75 or 105mm simply due to the increased explosives and shock value.

I like the alt sce's. Tweek away.

have a nice day

Tortue Agile · 05-03-2007, 12:44 AM,

About Artillery hard fire...
During the campaign in France, the Germans and French did use their 105mm and 75mm (respectively) to stop a tank attack using direct fire.

It would be nice to have something implemented (a flag in the oob) giving the possibility to an artillery unit to switch to AT mode (with some penalty applied) and a reduced range. It would make more sens than tweaking the hard value.

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 05-03-2007, 01:36 AM by Volcano Man.)

Volcano Man · 05-03-2007, 01:40 AM,

Hank · (This post was last modified: 05-03-2007, 03:07 AM by Hank.)

Dog Soldier · (This post was last modified: 05-04-2007, 04:09 PM by Dog Soldier.)

Great thread here. IIRC, artillery firing in direct fire mode against any target is not subject to the indirect fire rating in the PDT tables of the PzC game engine. Usually the indirect fire effectiveness is less than 100%.

This would be a desperate situation, since the target of the artillery fire at that point can fire back, assault, or direct indirect artillery fire on your guns.

Dog Soldier

Barbarrossa · 05-05-2007, 06:02 PM,

The British 25 pounder was probably the finest field gun of the 2nd world war.It was introduced in 1940 and remained in service until many armies until about 1970. It bore was 88mm and it could fire with a good crew at 5 rounds per min. In particalar it could and did fire armour piercing shells. In the early days in the desert until the introduction of the 6 pounder anti tank gun and the Hurricane with 20mm Cannon it probably destroyed more Axis Tanks than all other ordinances combined, so it should have a high hard attack value but only when firing in direct line of sight. The confusion comes from the ammunition being used. Ordinary HE lethal versus soft targets, poor versus Solid Armour whilst the exact reverse holds good for AP. This not a minor point if realistic sce invoving Commonweatlth Forces are concerned as the 25 pounder was the standard British field gun supplied to all Commonweatlh Armys.
I dont have the skills to put all this into the game I know that VOLCANO MAN has done a great job, but it a major error unless corrected to give the real picture. It was one of the reasons that the 25 pounder was considered to be the great field gun it was.(WIKIPEDIA FIELD GUN 25 POUNDER) is a simple reference.
Hope this helps

**Ricky B** · 05-05-2007, 11:16 PM,

I think most of us understand the effectiveness of the 25 pounder in direct fire on tanks, many other smaller caliber guns were similarly fairly effective also when firing over open sites on tanks. I remember in the Crusader battle reading of one of the infantry boxes knocking out a huge number of panzers when Rommel launched a panzer division against it, using primarily the 25 pdr. However, as was mentioned up above, there is no way to provide a high direct fire HA value that would be separate from the indirect fire HA, there is only the one value.

As was also mentioned, one solution, used in Budapest for a few guns, is to give a high HA but a short range, which might make a lot of sense for these sub-100mm barrels. But then the trade off is the loss of any ability to fire HA at long range.

One thing regarding Dog Soldier's post also - there is no indirect fire modifier. There is a direct fire modifier which reduces effectiveness at more than 1 hex unless the PDT is set to no loss of effectiveness.

Rick

Dog Soldier · 05-06-2007, 06:12 AM,

Whoops, Ricky B is correct. No wonder I been having problems stopping tanks in my games lately. :conf:

I was wondering if the 25 pounder could be represented as two counters. Some would be as AT guns, some as artillery. Care would be needed to not have too many guns in the scenario. This would be easy to implement, though a tad of a compromise since we know this was a dual purpose gun.

Dog Soldier