Total War in Germany 3.0

[greg]

[Elxaime]

Two thoughts:

- One thing that has bothered me abit about the situation is how empty the rear areas can be behind each army. This leaves open the possibility for wide-ranging operations behind enemy lines, while in fact these rear areas would be full of support formations but also Interior Ministry units, police, paramilitary forces, etc.

Have you considered adding units in, perhaps fixed on VP hexes for each side, to represent Interior Ministry, security, police and other forces? I am not talking about major combat capability or any real mobility. But that would make it less likely either side would get too frisky with helo raids, etc. At least there would be some opposition, spotters, etc.

- What about refugees on the roads? I seem to recall several board wargames on the topic having rules to reflect roadjams in cities as refugees flee. PzC has the capability to add this impact via the congestion rules.

[Aaron]

Im not at home so i cant look but off the top of my head there is a congestion rule which only lets u have so much at one time and when u cross over another unit on the road it cost more movement points then if there was nodody there.And i cant remember the name but theres the disruption rule or something like that where off the editor u can add hexes that when units drive threw they have a chance of being disrupted. I was going to leave 1 east german reserve div behind the lines for security/defensive reasons in fixed positions and theres alot more continues reinforcement activity for both sides so there will be more troops traveling threw the rear areas. As far as adding more units i have but they are all combat units and hqs, if u start adding security and ministry units on both sides ur adding another 100 units to the game and its already BIG, trying to keep it half way manageable. Plus if u r playing PBEM u can leave as many units as u want behind the lines.

Aaron

[Elxaime]

Your point on keeping down unit density is well taken. But if these units are fixed or limited mobility their presence should not cause much additional work the for the player. As far as leaving combat units in the rear or having combat units in transit provide rear security ad hoc as they move through, wouldn't that not be done IRL because that is what the interior security formations, national guards, etc are for?

[Aaron]

your point on fixed units not causing additional work is well taken, the next q would be if u add fixed units as reinforcements during the game how do i know how the war is going, example if i tell the cpu to add a security bn to hannover on turn 20 and u got stopped and didnt control hannover then a unit will appear behind enemy lines. Its kinda like working with the AI, when i give it a order to move to hannover on turn 1 then i have to assume how long it will take to battle its way there and then issue another order for turn 15 to head someplace else. Im just assuming how long it will take to get there if it ever does. I did pretty well in 3.0 but theres still ways to break an AI there always is.

Aaron

[Michal]

Greg,

If you look for the OOB of the soviet army in former Czechoslovakia, you should look at:
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=20013



Aaron,
I've also noticed too many "empty space" behind the front line.
It's especially unreal while playing WP you can often "travel" freely through West Germany from town to town...

Perhaps the Heimatschutz companies fixed in some towns would be a good solution?
I think these units could be fixed, they were not intended for moving from their hometown. They had to prepare defence of their town and wait for attackers.
Such fixed units couldn't complicate the game, they were weak, but at least would force fast advancing soviet units to pass by some towns.
Their list is on the tanknet's NATO OOB.

In bigger East Germany towns the same role could play "worker class" units.


Michal

[Elxaime]

Aaron -

Per the post above, what you could do is deploy as fixed units the national defense units of each side behind their starting borders, e.g. Interior Ministry, Police, National Guards, etc. to cover major cities and VP hexes. Then you could have a limited number of mobile reinforcements of these "security" troops for each side to be used to move and cover the rear areas in enemy territory.

Has the "patrolling" function been enabled for Modern Campaigns? If so, these units can be placed in patrolling function to help counter enemy special forces deception units. You could also add some NATO special forces "deception units" or give some of the selected NATO home defense forces this function (did West German heimat units have guerilla war training or capacity?). You might also add some bunker/pillbox emplacements where certain areas are airbases/fortified zones, major HQ (e.g. a defense ministry building) if that is realistically applicable.

I think if this is done right you eliminate a number of problems. No longer does enemy rear areas - at least in their own territory - become wide open spaces. You reduce possibility of "gamey" play with helos and airmobile that way - especially if you add belts of point defense AAA and SAM.

On another new topic, and not to give you a headache but I had to ask. Are there Surface-to-surface missile batteries missing from each side? Didn't both WP and NATO have more Pershing and Scud missiles for launching than what is in the game? I mean those with conventional warheads of course.

[Aaron]

As for SAMs they are already partially represented in the game in the fact that when u attepted to make an airstrike theres a 25% cange of fighter interception and a 15% chance of SAM interception. And i played with the idea of adding them but if i add them in one place i have to add them everywhere and it came out to about 100 more units and with trying to keep units down i ruled it out b/c they r already represented. I already have 32 more divisions in my oob then before. Pact forces actually had security bn in all there div and Nato had a bunch of reservist for the job also there was plenty of sam units for both sides, in div, in corps and armys and independent ones so my idea is instead of addind a bunch of security and Sam units to the map why not just combine both security bn and SAM bn into 1 fixed unit to cover Depots and major citys, that way its not adding anything the player has to manage and it would have the desired affect of showing the player if theres a helo unit in the rear and gives it both a def value on stopping a small inf att and some AA coverage.

Aaron

[Outlaw Josey Wales]

Don't know about the WP Scuds, but their were 9 Pershing Bns (3 US and 6 WG). I was Infantry Security in a Pershing unit 80-82. Our understanding then was if WP conventional occured we were to pack and run toward France and or Belgium and the Netherlands. We had 5 Batteries, A, B, C, D and Service. One Battery would be at Comabt Alert Site for 3 months, one prepping for CAS, one in garrison and one on field exercises. Cas is immediate war footing that if nukes were used, ours would be raised and fired at Czechoslovakia within minutes. That's 9 missiles from our battery alone. Each Bn was set up that way making 81 nukes at the ready. I don't remember any contingent for firing a conventional warhead.

On another note, the US Cav units are wrong to be in garrison in my opinion. There would be one bn in garrison, one in field training and one patrolling the border at all times. Alot of the combat units were same way with units in field training. I personally don't believe WP could have surprised NATO too badly at all. Also in the air, there was a constant CAP to some capacity 24/7 over Europe. I know there was always a squadron assigned directly for the Pershing units, 1/3 resting, 1/3 at the ready and 1/3 in flight. The purpose was to bomb our sites in case of their capture by some russki SF or terrorist units. Destruction would have been near complete if not 100%. We almost suffered that fate because one of our experienced radio operators was off smoking hash leaving a rookie in the commo truck for that person's first time and she was giving the wrong reply to the security check. It takes a total of 15 minutes allowing for mistakes before the first bombs are dropped. We were 30 seconds away from that when the other guy returned and caught it. Needless to say, he was busted and transferred to another unit farther north, but not before he got his ass kicked a few times before getting on the bus.

Still having great fun with the team game we have going tho, you guys are doing a great job.

[Aaron]

Thanks for the info Josey, i do have the latest and greatest info on oobs and the pershing and scud units are listed ive left them out on purpose and with the info u just gave me of no conventional warheads i dont see any reason for putting them in.

Aaron