Phantom Artillery

[timshin42]

Thanks Glenn,

I get your point. Guess I just wish there were more artillery fire planning and fire support coordination options available to use in the games. Like TOTs, Groups and Series of Targets, Final protective fires, FSLs, FSCLs,etc.

I suppose programming such features into a gamewould be exceptionally complicated and would probably not appeal to a wide audience.

I'm very happy to have the VERY REALISTIC Arty Setup rule. Can't visualize a WWII or KOREA game played without it (though I would love to be able to apply a variablke factor to SP vs Towed Arty). IMHO Indirect fire by the map is very real for WWII US or German Arty, but possibly not real for Soviet Arty.

Not asking for anything. HPS is the best there is,, be it ACW, WWII or Modern Battles! Thanks for all your good work and especially your great support.

[Dog Soldier]

I think the use of these "phantom artillery" units is a moot point.

To add to Glenn's point, in scenario 0510_01 The Invasion of France and Belgium, there are quite a few fixed German artillery which can not move but can fire on the Dutch and Belgians because there are elements of the artillery unit's organization which are not fixed. These elements can move on the first turn and spot for these artillery units.

I interpret this condition to be the artillery was "off map" the first few turns or day depending on the release turn. They could support the "on board" elements of their organization, but not be available for a general blitz like move to the Maas River or Albert Canal on the first day. Thus they function to support the initial breakthrough, in some sectors and the mopping up that would follow the breakthrough the first day of the campaign. (example 31st Infantry division in (361,19) or V AK in (381,75).

Most of these "phantom artillery" are released by the third turn. The exception are the long range guns attached to the various corps HQs. The divisional artillery can drop out of "T" mode while fixed. Setup on turn two. Then get off one or two shots during turns three and four if there are any surviving Belgian or Dutch units left in range of the guns by then. The guns would then have to limber and join the advance to the Maas River or Albert Canal paying a penalty in movement that first turn to move back into "T" mode.

An experienced player might want to forgo these "free shots" since they do not change the outcome. The front line Belgian and dutch troops can be easily overwhelmed by turn three without these extra artillery strikes. The need for speed in the first day of the campaign is what I would consider more valuable as the German player. I would just leave these units limbered and ready to go when they are released. Most are horse drawn and will have a hard time keeping up with the point of the advance.

Dog Soldier

[Dog Soldier]

I did find one exception while looking over scenario 0510_01 in F40. Hexes (361,74) and (361,75) attached to the V AK are not in transport mode and can fire beginning on turn one even though they are fixed. These guns are not released until 10:00 AM on May 11, the second day of the campaign. They do have the range to support the infantry in V AK during the first day's advance.

Their most common use is to hamstring the Belgians by disruption from retreating too quickly or reducing the fortress defenders on the ridge above Theux.

Dog Soldier

[Glenn Saunders]

timshin42

Appreciate you comments - a couple points worth adding - not sure if they are news to you but they might be for others

I get your point. Guess I just wish there were more artillery fire planning and fire support coordination options available to use in the games. Like TOTs, Groups and Series of Targets, Final protective fires, FSLs, FSCLs,etc.

Yes, but the problem is making them work in a 2 or 3 hour turns

I'm very happy to have the VERY REALISTIC Arty Setup rule. Can't visualize a WWII or KOREA game played without it (though I would love to be able to apply a variablke factor to SP vs Towed Arty).

SP Guns ignore the Setup Value so they can shot and scout. Now sometimes SP Guns are not evident in earlier Titles as the art wasn't there at the time.

IMHO Indirect fire by the map is very real for WWII US or German Arty, but possibly not real for Soviet Arty.

The problem with this idea is when put in the hands of a Human player and a key hex is IDs virtually every shell within range hits that one target and no other tergets get a look. That isn't realistic either.

Furthermore - because the game engine is such one unit at a time, a player can fire one Arty unit - see what result he gets and then decide if wants to fire a second - and so on. This too leads to gamey results which would be further compounded if more possible firing units are available.

Finally - when you give more and more ability of a Operational Commander to to micro manage single arty units and do what is possible will in itself lead to over results that are NOT possible.

That is making a rule that make sense in the Detail view doesn't work in the BIG Picture.

I really waffle back and forth around this arguement. FOr example in real life a Div boundary is a weak point and a good place to target. But in game terms (with Indirect Fire by Map ON) they are stronger because there is more Arty units available.

Another interesting thing is what I learned by reading three books by a Cdn FOO in WWII. His name was Blackburn and his books are The Guns of Normandy, The Guns of Victory and Where the Hell are the Guns.

If you take what he says at face value it give you one perspective which is hard to dispute on how very effective the Guns were and how fast a lowly 2LT could cal ldown fire from all the Guns of the CORPS by designating a VICTOR Target.

But then I attended a academic lectures by one of our Cdn WWII experts (such as Terry Copp - we have an Excellent Military Museum here with a Evening lecture series) and he paints a completely different story on the effectiveness of the Guns. He cites various sources including some which measured the amount of Allied sharpnel removed for our own Cdn Casualities. ANd while he wasn't there like Blackburnwas - he certainly know an awful lot about it all and has spent his life researching it full time.

...I have to tell you, there are days it makes my head spin with how to apply what I've read and learned into things I can ask John Tiller to Program for us - things that meet his goal of adding "Simple Elegance" to the game - that is things that the game considers, the code takes care of and that don't over burden the game or make many rules one needs to know to understand and not become frustrated with.

..anyway - interest discussion all the same.

Glenn

[alaric99x]

If your using the Default Optional Rules, there shouldn't really be any problem because the vast majority of those arty units would not have valid spotters on the map.

If you've changed the optional rules - and you are welcome to do so, that is why they are there - and you've

TURNED OFF ARTY Setup
and
TURNED ON Indirect Fire by Map

... and discovered a side effect of this - then that is a different issue. So it is reasonable for the parties to discuss how they agree to handle it. But I wouldn't request a change to stop fixed units from firing or fixed arty from firing. In fact I could see more problems being caused by this.

Glenn

I didn't use those options. In fact I used the Volcano alt campaign scenario and all the options recommended for those.

Dog Soldier has described all the important elements of this question.

There are significant elements of the fixed divisions that are released early. Of course, they move forward and come into contact with Dutch and Belgian units. Within the first few turns you have quite a few gun tubes available to help vaporize the lingering Dutch, and some Belgians. Additionally, some Belgian units get spotted and you end up concentrating 8 to 12 art. units against them, simply because there's nothing else to shoot at. I've started this scenario both ways, using this artillery and not using it. It does make a difference if you have this extra artillery available.

There's no problem at all with the scenario, I certainly wouldn't recommend changing anything, not even the fixed art. units. I guess it comes down to the question of what the designer intended. Are these units supposed to be back on the road somewhere, or are they meant to be set up and used?

[FM WarB]

The reason why you have this "phantom artillery" issue is easily explained. If the map extended further east to alleviate it, people like me would have considered churning out France '44/ Siegfried Line scenarios. I do not criticize HPS for that, but there it is.
I am happy with the scenario, oob and pdt file editing that I can do in PzC and Nappy games, and will not buy another ACW game, because I cannot do such in them.

[Glenn Saunders]

The reason why you have this "phantom artillery" issue is easily explained. If the map extended further east to alleviate it, people like me would have considered churning out France '44/ Siegfried Line scenarios. I do not criticize HPS for that, but there it is.
I am happy with the scenario, oob and pdt file editing that I can do in PzC and Nappy games, and will not buy another ACW game, because I cannot do such in them.

No - it wasn't France '44/ Siegfried Line scenarios. However we didn't want anyone to build a Bulge Game on the France 40 Map, thus negating the need for people to own Bulge. That could piss off a lot of people who bought Bulge. And Bulge is a very popular game!

Looking at it another way we made a lot of map for this game and saw no reason to go further east of where we are as there was no significant fighting there. And, as Dog Soldier posted above, it really makes no significant difference in the outcome either.

So why add more map, all to save a few arty shots which makes no difference to the outcome?

Glenn

[FM WarB]

[

No - it wasn't France '44/ Siegfried Line scenarios. However we didn't want anyone to build a Bulge Game on the France 40 Map, thus negating the need for people to own Bulge. That could piss off a lot of people who bought Bulge. And Bulge is a very popular game!



Glenn
[/quote]

I thought of that, too and own Bulge. It wouldnt have pissed me off, but I'm odd that way, I guess.

[Dirk Gross]

The problem with this idea is when put in the hands of a Human player and a key hex is IDs virtually every shell within range hits that one target and no other tergets get a look. That isn't realistic either.

Glenn

Couldn't this be addressed by the same technique that won't allow an unlimited number of move adjacent and fire attacks? Or the limit on air attacks on a hex?

[Dog Soldier]

Dirk,

That is an interesting suggestion. It occurred to me there could be one side effect to this approach. In games like R42 and N44 where the defenders are in strong bunker and pillbox positions, without a maximum artillery effort, the attack will never really get off the ground, or the beaches in the case of N44.

Dog Soldier