Normandy 44 Bunkers

[keif149]

Isn't locking zones of control rule to be turned off for ALT scenarios?

[Bushido]

Gents,
I can't find anything new in this.
I myself is playing a full Sicily campaign and my opponent throw everything
against me. Same german tactic and strategy.

[Baelfiin]

4 things about the OMAHA beach landing.

1. There is no garuntee you are going to get off the beach without help from the british. It is possible, I have done it and its been done to me.

2. German releases for their units are like playing the lottery. The German might get real lucky and get a lot of units early, which will make it rough on the allies. At the same time they may get real UNlucky and the Allies are going to have a field day.

3. The Germans ARE going to run out of dudes to plug into the line, its just a matter of time. I think that the German player who is stacked up in the pillboxes behind OMAHA is going to be weaker behind GOLD, especially if the british are concentrating on stretching the German line.

4. CHeck out your hard attack values on your AT guns and BB's. BB shots seem to be really good at taking out the German guns in the pillbox/bunkers. Dont waste DD shots against PILLBOX, find soft targets or bunkers (maybe) for them to shoot at. Same thing for y our airforce.

[Volcano Man]

Well, I don't know what to tell you guys. :( Some people have had success getting off of Omaha and apparently others have not. At one point I was told it was too weak and at another point I was told it was too strong.

That facts are, you pretty much have to assault in situations before you get disruptions on the Germans and you have to do this repeatedly until you get a breakthrough. In the latest version some hexes have been weakened to the point that some are PILLBOXES and some are pillboxes. From what I have played, the easiest way to get off the beaches seems to be starting in the west, as was largely the case. Once two fortification hexes in the west can be taken, then you can either attempt to move off the southwest or, if your opponent puts units two hexes away, then you can continue to assault the third pillbox hex by rotating your units out from beach to captured pillbox hex.

Other than providing advice there is not much else I can do. I have tried to accomodate everyone's suggestions for change, and I think that it is at a point where it CAN go either way. Obviously I cannot please everyone but unless someone has a specific change in mind then there really is nothing that can be done. To me that is all you can hope for is a situation where the allies can get off the beach and where the germans can prevent it. I think historically it was the case, so you don't want it to be a forgone conclusion but a fair chance for either possibility for either occurance.

As far as a "certain tactic" that will "catch on like wild fire", I think this is an overreaction. It is nothing more than common sense for the Germans to pump every unit that becomes available in the sector to the beach. It is nothing more than an intelligent decision, not a mystery that has just been discovered. My only suggestion is to practice getting off the beach in solitaire play. A reliable technique for advancing inland can be mastered with a little luck, but if you haven't practiced it then chances are it will be even more difficult to achieve than if you do try several methods.

FWIW, someone mentioned german tanks being brought up to the pillboxes as well. Keep in mind that vehicle units DO NOT get the benifits of pillboxes or bunkers: they only get the benifit from IP and Trenches.

[Volcano Man]

Isn't locking zones of control rule to be turned off for ALT scenarios?

Right, soft ZOC should not be used becuase it makes it too difficult (actually impossible) for the Germans to hold the line everwhere else.

[Mr Grumpy]

It is hard for me to get too involved with this as i don't have N44, but it sounds from what Barbarrossa seems to be suggesting is that these guys are playing with locking ZOC on which prevents the US units moving from one friendly occupied hex to another, rather than leaving that optional rule unchecked as i should be for Alt scenarios. :chin:

If that is true then that will make a huge difference, remember there are three ZOC situations....

Locking ZOC rule checked...no movement through ZOC,

Locking ZOC rule unchecked...no movement through ZOC except into another friendly hex useing full MP,

Locking ZOC unchecked....and the ZOC multiplier (in the PDT) is a figure greater than zero, this is "soft" ZOC and allows movement between ZOC without a friendly units.

These guys should be using the middle rule.

[Gordons HQ]

It seems to me that the game does not do the actual beach landings well and it's no reflection on VM's great dedication and work here, may he long continue.
But if we take the actual beach fortifications these are 7 kilometers of actual pillbox, that is each kilometer comprises of a kilometer wide pillbox or put another way a kilometer squared pillbox.
This is more like the Maginot Line than the Atlantic Wall.
Lets face it the Atlantic Wall, so called Fortress Europe was a joke. The Allies went through it like a knife through butter. In most places it only held them up until 1000 (4 hours) and on Omaha men were getting off the beach by 1400 (7 hours)
I know there were a large number of casualties here or at least by western standards. But due to the courage of the others they did get off the beach, even though they were delayed somewhat. I think it is bad our game can change the courage of these men and I think the real battle should always be inland from the beaches. The beaches should be no more than a delaying of the invasion as in reality.
This brings me back to the pillboxes they could only hold about 20 to 50 men maximum plus some a number of Guns. I'm not talking of the inland ones here like"Hillman" which held more men.
Yet I am faced in one pillbox anyway by 6 xxx's (over 600 men) and 1 x guns of some description (FOG here). The other boxes are pretty similar although I haven't counted them all.

The other thing with this scenario is Allied units are all fixed at night unless in direct contact with the enemy. But the Axis is free I assume to move. I can understand this is to simulate the tendency of the Allies to rest at night and not fight, while the Axis brings up reinforcements.
All well and good, but it means the allies can't bring any reinforcements up at all for two turns. I always assumed that night fatigue was the deciding factor in whether you wished to fight at night or not. I'm sure some Allies moved up to the front at night. I've read it so it must be true.lol

I suppose at least for my satisfaction feet dry or a similar scenario would be a better option, but this starts with all Allied Forces on 200 fatigue.
This also seems a very high amount to me where many men will have walked ashore as if on a Sunday stroll. I of course strongly disagree with this amount of fatigue.
I would have tinkered with the scenarios myself and tried to do something here, but I'm not sure I can use the Editor.
I'm sorry to go on about this but I think it bears dome debate and I see I'm not alone in my opinions.

Regards,
Gordon

[Volcano Man]

But if we take the actual beach fortifications these are 7 kilometers of actual pillbox, that is each kilometer comprises of a kilometer wide pillbox or put another way a kilometer squared pillbox.

I disagree there, the pillbox does not have to be physically filling up the entire hex, it could be sitting in the center of one hex, and another one 1000 meters away in the center of another hex. It does not mean there is a one solid mass of pillbox all the way across the beach. In some cases it also represents several pillboxes in a single hex. If you look at the "WN" designation, you can see that some hexes historically contained three pillboxes. And although you think that the Atlantic Wall was a joke, it was NOT a joke in the Omaha beach sector. The reason the Atlantic Wall would even be considered a joke is just because of the sheer amount of coastline that the Germans tried to fortify, so in some places it was naturally non existent. However, it other places it was quite formitable. And Omaha was one of them.

The other thing with this scenario is Allied units are all fixed at night unless in direct contact with the enemy. But the Axis is free I assume to move. I can understand this is to simulate the tendency of the Allies to rest at night and not fight, while the Axis brings up reinforcements.
All well and good, but it means the allies can't bring any reinforcements up at all for two turns. I always assumed that night fatigue was the deciding factor in whether you wished to fight at night or not. I'm sure some Allies moved up to the front at night. I've read it so it must be true.lol

No, if you read the designers notes document you can see the rationale behind all of the changes. For the fixed allied units on the first night it was done because many players here suggested that the allies could regroup and go on the all out offensive too quickly. They historically needed a period to reconsolidate. I agree with them, having played as the allies many times, and I think it is a good change. The first day turn night fix is necissary to force the player to wait as they historically did and it creates a more historical allied advance rate to allow the Germans to begin to historically solidify. I don't think you are looking at the big picture in some of the complaints here. This seems inconsistent too(?). If you are complaining about not being able to get off of Omaha beach then the night fix would not be an issue since, if you did not have a breakthrough, you would not have a hex on the beach that was not adjacent and if you did it would probably only be one or two. If you are referring to the other areas then this is indeed why the change was made: the advance on the first full night turn was happening too fast in the other areas of the campaign. Most importantly though, it was done for the very same reason that all allied airborne are fixed on the night of the drop as well.

Unfortunately I am not getting the sense of any specific suggestions from you -- just a series of complaints. So feel free to use the editor and change it to fit your personal tastes.

[Volcano Man]

I think that in the next version I will make the change that I thought of earlier: to put impassible hexes behind the Omaha beach on the longer scenarios (ie. not the 6 turn Omaha scenario), in order to allow the historic option of withdrawing units from the beach. It could be used to remove shattered units to allow fresh ones to land, or (in the worse case scenario) it could be done to totally abandon the beach so until it can be attacked from east and west. This unit removal would be at the expense of permanently losing the unit for the rest of the campaign, so there is an inherent penalty with doing this.

The reason that the short scenarios wont have this change is because the allied player would not the least bit concerned with removing units since he does not have to look that far ahead.

Gordon, also keep in mind that there is an Omaha beach scenario currently under H2H development so any specific changes suggested by the testers will naturally make it into the rest of the campaign as well. So I am not going to say that the situation will not change, but that is up to the testers to decide.

[Mike Bowen]

I am playing the version before the current one and it is turn 23 (from memory) and the Brits have rescued Omaha but there are pillboxes isolated for several turns still holding not disrupting and not taking losses. They will fall in time. I have because I knew of the pending change frozen the allies at night.

I do think that the allied naval units are not strong enough esp as the supply level is lower now.

Personally I do not like the idea of being able to pull units out to impassable hexes, I think Omaha should be a mess that the Allies have to sort out.

Perhaps one way of helping the allies would be to make the beach hexes improved to start with so the engineers may survive undisrupted.

Also as the allies do not forget you can stop mine clearing blow a AT ditch and then switch back to mine clearing that does help a bit

Mike