Normandy 44 Bunkers

[keif149]

Could we have a poll on possible options for future refinements?

[Volcano Man]

Well, it seems to be obvious that we have users who are pro allies and pro axis when it comes to Omaha. I have tried to thread the needle and make it balanced enough to go either way and, as I said earlier, it seems historically appropriate. The impassible hex ability to withdraw US units in longer scenarios is a pro allied change that is an attempt to counter what some perceive as a more benificial axis situation on Omaha beach.

I guess that I don't have to make the change but I see no reason why not to do it since the allies were contemplating withdrawing units from the beach in the first place. It only makes sense to allow it in the campaign -- and it does come with the consequence of permanently losing units that are withdrawn in this manner.

As for a poll, feel free to start one if you like. :)

[Gordons HQ]

Hi Volcano Man,
I certainly do not wish to critise your efforts here, that was never my intention and I'm sorry if I sound a little complaining. What I was trying to do here is raise a general discussion.
It is a little difficult for me to make specific suggestions as I really don't know how the editor works properly and what could be achieved in the way of changes.
I do LIKE the idea of an area where the men on Omaha could retire if things don't go well there, so long as landings could still take place there with the reinforcements still to come if the Allied player so wishes. In that way the German player would still have to man Omaha just in case to prevent this eventuality.

Now another specific I would like is some LIMIT ON STACKING in the pillboxes in general not just Omaha. I will try to explain my reasoning and theory behind what I say here.
You are quite right to point out that the pillbox may be in the middle of the hex and only take up 30 or 40 square meters and in fact many were no bigger than this.
However this then raises the question that the remainder of the hex or I should say the majority of the hex is OTHER TERRAIN. So in fact we have 2 terrain types in the hex.
Obviously our game cannot portrait this and so portaits the pillbox or bunker.
That means that everyone who enters this hex other than armour benefits from the defensive capabilities of the pillbox.
In fact most of those who enter the hex would be in other terrain and not pillboxes.

To try to make this more plain,

Everyone who reads this must have seen the war films or newreels of the time. The alarm is sounded at the sight of the Allied fleet and the men instantly man the pillboxes. That was the whole point they were not to arrive 4 or 6 hours later but instantly. It was no use arriving later.
THEY WERE REQUIRED STRAIGHT AWAY.

THEY ARE CREWED to maximum then.

This is what we see on turn 1 of our game the crews have manned the pillboxes there is no more room for anyone else in these boxes. Anyone else arriving at the beach has to avail themselves of some other shelter in the terrain and cannot benefit from the added protection of a pillbox.

MY SUGGESTION
As I've said our game can only use one type of terrain in each hex, so I guess in my opinion some compromise has to be achieved here. I would suggest that only one other type unit from others not already stationed in the pillboxes be allowed to enter each pillbox.

This may seem drastic to some players but it is a compromise there is no other terrain men arriving at the beach can use. But by one unit being allowed to enter a box and benefit from it protection this should make up for the actual numbers that could normally fill the terrain.
To do this anyway the Axis player is denuding other ares which historically were manned.

These are the only points I would like to change for the sake of a more historically accurate game.
The other points I have made before I admit, I was mistaken in the fixed units at night and believed it was every night turn. Just too much to read sometimes or the old brain won't take it all in.
Turn 1 and fixed units is perfectly acceptable.

I hope that you find this constructive and a well thought out argument for some change here. I believe I have made this in the best interests of the game and have not taken the step lightly.

Regards,
Gordon



.

[Sgt Barker]

Now another specific I would like is some LIMIT ON STACKING in the pillboxes in general not just Omaha.

I doubt this is technically possible. There no other example I can think of where the same type of unit is treated differently in a hex depending on how many are stacked there.

IMO looking at a "bunker" for example as a single, or even multiple pieces of terrain is a mistake. A "bunker" is not literally a bunker, or even more than one bunker. It is simply a name for a gradient of defensive works between TRENCH and BUNKER that covers an entire 1km hex.

With 8 levels of fortification available the answer to making Omaha easier for the allies to exit is to simply dink around with setting different levels of existing fortification for each hex (which is exactly what VM looks to have done). From "improved" to "PILLBOX", just edit away until the right mix for the half dozen or so hexes are found.

[Volcano Man]

Sgt Barker is correct, stacking limit on pillboxes cannot be done other than the formation of house rules if that is what someone wants to do (but one of the missions of the _Alt scenarios is to eliminate all house rules).

As Sgt Barker also states, the practical (and easiest) solution is indeed with tweaking the fortification levels of the beach hexes. If it is deemed that some are too tough then BUNKER can be changed to Bunker, Pillbox to BUNKER, or PILLBOX to Pillbox. If anyone has any specific suggestions on which hex to downgrade then I am all ears *hint hint*. ;)

Some good recommended reading on how tough Omaha was and the basis of the current Omaha beach fortification levels:

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/100-11/100-11.htm

[Volcano Man]

Actually, I will look into it a bit more. I did a little experimenting and I might be able to downgrade three Pillbox hexes to BUNKER hexes @ 20,12 - 21,13 - 23,14. I will see how it plays out.

[Peter777]

I like the current Ohama beach, it seems pretty right to me.

I have test played the 2 day version 4 times, 3 times as the Germans and once as the US player.

My Germans have won once. The other 3 times the US player has won or drawn, meeting or exceeding historical results.

Even in the game where the Germans won at the end of day 2 the US player was 4 km inland and held most of the beach bunkers, but not the very northern end.

So I think it is pretty balanced, but as the US player you need a little luck combined with good PZC Bunker/Pillbox tatics.

One change I would make is to able to select the day 2 landing hexs to avoid a blocked part of the beach, may be you should select which hex to land on 4 turns in advance.


Peter777

[Peter777]

The trouble is with the rule of being unable to advance from one zone of control to the other.

The Americans Capture a pillbox. The German player retreats into the adjoining Bunkers but makes certain that no reteating units adjoin the captured Pillbox inland but places even a distrupted unit one hex away inland. This completly prevents the Americans from advancing except by once again trying to take the adjoining bunkers and one is not sufficient if they are in the middle, to m ake sure three have to captured that are adjacent to each other.

A simple solution would be to permit the rule to enable an advance from one enemy control to another with loss of all move points and the first unit being disrupted.

I have seen this and done it with mixed results.

Peter777

[Gordons HQ]

I agree house rules are not usually a good idea. The website mentioned appears to be a very good site. Although I haven't had time to read it fully, to me it reinforces the fact that men were moving inland a lot quicker than our game allows.
I think Peter makes my point for me, as the Allied player a lot of LUCK is required along with technique, especially with heavily unrealistically reinforced Pillboxes.
This is a pity because although it makes an interesting, "What if Omaha failed situation." It effectively stops all reinforcements arriving scheduled for this beach or to land anywhere else and there are some formidable units scheduled to arrive there.
Another point I would like to make about Omaha which is often missed is, the navy destroyers came very close inshore and destroyed a lot of these pillboxes, this not very easy to do in the game, in fact they are pretty ineffective against these boxes.
In effect I feel all this is seriously handicapping the Allied player early on in a campaign or larger game.
It must never be forgotten Allied surprise was total at this point.

I think that if there is a "What if Omaha failed situation," then this should be the subject of a different scenario in it own right. Then anyone playing this would know from the start what the scenario is about.

If nothing can be done then I suppose the Allied players will have to
suffer, grin and bear it then find some other way of defeating the werhmacht.
Regards,
Gordon

[Peter777]

Hi Gordon

I like playing the Allies as well as the Germans.

The Allies need only a little luck to get off the beach quickly. The main luck you need is getting enough Heavy naval fire support (BB/CA types).

In my games the Allies have always got off the beach by late on D-Day (1400 or 1600). But if you are not getting off in a few places by 1600 you are in trouble as German reinforcements start arriving.

I agree about the close in destroyer support but there were only few that did it. This direct naval support plus fire from a few tanks finally started to break down the German strong points late in the day. Most early naval fire was pretty useless.

My advice is to practice bunker busting / beach assaults and then give it a go. I originally found it tough to get off the beach but now I know it takes determination and time (do not rush it). Look for those weak points and any disrupted units, do not fatigue your men until you and ready.

I am always happy to play a game (as either side) to test out D-Day Ohama.

Having read a lot about Ohama on D-Day I still think that Eds latest version is pretty close to history, it has the right feel of the battle plus it is an entertining fight for both sides.

If you want to soften it I would make another pillbox a bunker that should be enough.

Cheers

Peter777