MC: Tanks using Snorkels

[HirooOnoda]

Honestly, I know we've discussed this before, but hey, we've talked about the mythical Soviet thermal imaging and we've put that baby to bed.

I think, from a play-balance perspective, we should re-examine the ability of WP tank units to move across a river hexside w/o a bridge, using their snorkels. I think we could consider it doctrine for the Russians given that even their T-90s are still equipped with snorkels.

We could make it that that they have to use 100% of their movement points and suffer possible disruption after the movement.

Comments?

[Volcano Man]

Snorkeling is mainly for shallow water crossing where the water comes up to the top of the hull, just high enough to kill the engine but not deep enough to be considered crossing a primary river.

That said, deep water crossing is *theoretically possible*, but the tank(s) require careful and extensive preparation and you would likely lose half of your tanks in the process due to leaks taking in water or getting stuck on the bottom, or you would lose a significant amount before the operation was called off. As a matter of fact, any tank crew member will generally resist any thought of deep water crossing because it will most likely result in them drowning or getting stuck on the bottom. So in all fairness, deep water snorkel operations with tanks is something that would probably never happen in the real world, and if it were possible in the game then there would have to be a mechanic to randomly lose up to 50-60% of your tanks and it would have to have several turns to prepare the tanks for crossing and generally recon the ingress and egress of the crossing site and determine the depth of the river. In other words, I don't think it should be possible.

[Volcano Man]

Here is something I just found... it is from Wikipedia of all things which we know is not always accurate but this sums it up nicely:

For most tanks, water operations are limited to fording. The fording depth is usually limited to the height of the air intake of the engine, and to a lesser extent the driver's position. The typical fording depth for MBTs is 90-120 cm. (3-4 ft).

However, with preparation some tanks are able to ford considerably deeper waters...

This type of fording requires careful preparation of the tank and the ingress and egress sites on the banks of the water obstacle. Tank crews usually have a negative reaction towards deep fording. This has influenced tactics in those countries where the psychological health of the crews or their capacity for rebellion is taken into account...

This sums it up nicely, it is just something that would not be done and if it were it would be one of those risky ops that might happen once and at great loss. With that in mind, it does not make this justification to give soviet tanks an amphibious flag because it would not be realistically considered the norm. I know I have never been on a tank that could keep rain water out of the hatches, much less be considered air tight enough to submerge under water. I am sure anyone else who has ever been on a tracked vehicle would say the same thing.

[Glenn Saunders]

...... In other words, I don't think it should be possible.

Guys:

If you can find a copy of this book:

Suvorov, Viktor, Inside the Soviet Army,

Suvorov is or was a Soviet Defector who had a lot to say about the WP capability and I recall a reference in there that said for the purpose of demonstrating the snookelling ability of their tanks they ended up first building a wide concrete ramp under the water so the tanks could appear to appear to be able to do this.

There is lots of other things that you will find interesting too. Quite an eye opener.

Glenn

[KG_RangerBooBoo]

I don't think I could order my tanks to do anything that I know I wouldn't in any way do myself and driving underwater in a 60 ton armored box wouldn't be one of those things I would do.

[alaric99x]

I was stationed on the Rhine, at Karlsruhe and then Mannheim, in the US Army in the 1980's. Soviet snorkeling tanks were included in our OPFOR (opposing forces) briefings. They told us that all the rivers in West Germany had been studied to determine where such tanks could actually cross. After the self-proclaimed experts eliminated steep banks, soft bottoms, deep water and fast currents, etc., there were very few places left where such tanks could safely cross.

[Sgt Fury]

A T-55 prepares to snorkel across the Adriatic:



Smoke 'em if ya got 'em! :smoke:

Fury

[Al]

Interesting subject to bring up. This falls into the category of things the Soviets could have "possibly" done versus the likelihood of it ever happening in a war-time situation. I know that it was practiced in Soviet training but only in very specific & controlled situations. I suppose that a snorkel would have been most useful in fording operations that reached the max fording depths of tanks as an added "safety" measure.

I believe that the West German Army investigated using snorkels as I have seen photos of Leopard-I's fitted with that type of equipment. Don't know how far they went with the experimentation.

Finally, I know that the Soviets practiced bridging operations extensively (& were very good at it) so they must have placed more emphasis on those type operations rather than the riskier snorkeling. From my experience with the MC games I have played the Soviets seem to be able to put a bridge very quickly.

[Aaron]

I have that book Glenn mentioned on my CPU, no time today but tomorrow i could post it up.

Aaron

[HirooOnoda]

Well I figured what the heck, I mean if we can have the Soviets with Thermal imaging they didn't have in the 1980s, why not at least let them snorkel rivers? I mean at least they did have snorkels.

And did the Germans in WW2 use some Pz-IIIs with Snorkels to cross the Bug river in 1941 and move almost immediately into combat?

Hey, if they could do that in 1941 I figure 44 years later the Russians could pull that off.