M4 & M4A3 Shermans with 17pdr's in U.S. Service

Jumbo · 03-25-2008, 06:19 AM,

According to a few reliable sources. Apperently a few (100) American Shermans were converted by the British with 80 being issued equally to the First and Ninth Armies. The other 20 conversions were given back to the British. U.S. conversions appeared to have been called, Sherman M4 and M4A3 17 Pounder. There is no mention of Firefly. For obvious reasons it appears that these conversions saw extremely limited combat use if any. These conversions were only issued to U.S. forces in Italy 1945. I have come accross a Report of Action during period 11 April 1945 to 2 May 1945, Issued by Headquarters 755th Tank Battalion APO 464 U.S. Army on the Po River Campaign. There is the mention on 27 April 1945 of Company D making use of a single attached 17pdr.

Does anyone out there have any information or know of a source that may provide additional information of the U.S. Armies use of converted Shermans armed with 17pdr's ? .... If so it's possible we might be able to include these types to the U.S. OOB in a future update 1.04 of Matrix edition.

Sources: http://frespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/usnew.html and http://755ththtank.com/porivercamp.html

McIvan · 03-25-2008, 08:24 PM,

I don't have a source to hand, but I do know the Brits converted the Shermans for the US forces in Italy because they didn't get any M36s or Pattons....so the 17pdr in a tank was a fairly welcome addition.

Will try and dig something up, but breath should not be held.

Jumbo · 03-26-2008, 02:52 AM,

Hi McIvan,

From the text I've read. It mentions the U.S. Army requested these conversions in the summer of 1944 for use in NW Europe and Italy. Pruduction /Conversions by the British were delayed until around January 1945 due to the lack of suitable 75mm Shermans from either US or British stocks. Ammunition shortage was also a factor and one that fatally delayed the program and caused the proposed numbers to be as limited as they were. These US 17pdr Shermans were also only delevired to units operating in Italy becouse as you said the lack of powerfully armed US tank types in that theater of operation. By 1945 the US Army in NW Europe allready had large numbers of M36 Jacksons armed with the 90mm and T26E3 Pershings also armed with 90mm entering the theater, And so the focus was put on getting those 17pdr Shermans in the theater where they were needed most.

The M4A3 wet hull Sherman type was prefered as it saved between 20-30 percent less man hours to convert. I'll keep looking for more stuff on it. A photo would be nice too.

majog · 03-26-2008, 08:43 PM,

Eric:

With only 100 ever built why even try to put them in the game? Not like we can design a whole scn around just them and the level of effort to include them would not be worth the work. Just my opinion of course and I am sure other might not feel the same way.

Hawk Kriegsman · 03-26-2008, 09:36 PM,

majog Wrote:Eric:

With only 100 ever built why even try to put them in the game? Not like we can design a whole scn around just them and the level of effort to include them would not be worth the work. Just my opinion of course and I am sure other might not feel the same way.

I am sorry I have to totally disagree on this. There is a whole host of German units in the OOB that was used in quantities of less than 100. The Maus Super Heavy Tank comes to mind right off the bat with its 2 prototypes getting into battle.

Add the 17 pounder US Sherman. It would not be that hard.

Thanx!

Hawk

Herr Straße Laufer · 03-27-2008, 04:45 AM,

majog Wrote:Eric:

With only 100 ever built why even try to put them in the game? Not like we can design a whole scn around just them and the level of effort to include them would not be worth the work. Just my opinion of course and I am sure other might not feel the same way.

I have to agree with Erik and Eric on this.

Too many Axis field mods have made it into the game, with a much lower quantity in use, to warrant keeping any Allied field mods from play.
Just my opinion. ;)

cheers

**Jason Petho** · 03-27-2008, 05:29 AM,

I also have to agree with Eric, Erik and Ed on this. I prefer having the systems available for scenario design as opposed to improvising.

After the expansion to the Soviet/Russians, US and Germans that are to be included in 1.03, I plan on tackling the Brits and Japanese for 1.04.

Jason Petho

Hawk Kriegsman · 03-27-2008, 05:35 AM,

Speaking of systems does Matrix CS have the T34/57?

A small number of T34's between 1941 and 1943 where fitted with high velocity 57mm guns!

Thanx!

Hawk

**Jason Petho** · 03-27-2008, 05:53 AM,

Hawk Kriegsman Wrote:Speaking of systems does Matrix CS have the T34/57?

A small number of T34's between 1941 and 1943 where fitted with high velocity 57mm guns!

Thanx!

Hawk

I did include them for 1.03, yes indeed.

Jason Petho