The First Blitzkrieg

[Tortue Agile]

With some regained interest for TFB, I was looking at the game and the oob on the allied side for the scenario 130 (invasion of France) and was still wondering why the DLM divisions were considered in the game as Mechanized division?
The French name is Division Legere Mecanique which for the Cavalry (its original branch of the Army) means Legere= Fast, mobile and Mecanique = using machine in opposition to the Cavalry Division using horses.

Between the DRC and the DLM, I would say that the DLM were certainly more lethal and better balanced (ratio Infantry/tanks).

[Ricky B]

Hello Tortue,

I don't have the game in front of me, so I can't check things out right now. I believe you are saying that the DLM divisions should be considered as armored rather than mechanized, right? I agree that they did have a very balanced mix of forces in them, probably more equivalent to the panzer divisons of 1941-1945 period than a mechanized division, although in 1940 the panzers were fairly heavy in tank strength also.

Anyway, in understanding your point on this, I am not sure it has an impact on combat, being mechanized versus armored. I can't think of any current rule that would cause a different effect from this anyway, as the units have their various ratings including armor, independent of type. For mech and armored units, I think the only impact is on the icons for it - but I may be wrong there.

Regards
Rick

[Tortue Agile]

Hello Tortue,

I don't have the game in front of me, so I can't check things out right now. I believe you are saying that the DLM divisions should be considered as armored rather than mechanized, right? I agree that they did have a very balanced mix of forces in them, probably more equivalent to the panzer divisons of 1941-1945 period than a mechanized division, although in 1940 the panzers were fairly heavy in tank strength also.

Exactly, in the game their armored factor is 39 when the one of the DCR is 60. Even if the DCR had a heavy tank (B1Bis) it was slow and unreliable (about 150 tanks in the division), on the other hand the DLM had about 192 tanks in the division, half of them were Somua S35 (with the excellent 47mm on the good side and the small turret on the bad side).

Anyway, in understanding your point on this, I am not sure it has an impact on combat, being mechanized versus armored. I can't think of any current rule that would cause a different effect from this anyway, as the units have their various ratings including armor, independent of type. For mech and armored units, I think the only impact is on the icons for it - but I may be wrong there.

Regards
Rick

It should change the value of the unit if we take in consideration that:
the DLM had 3 battalions of Infantry, 2 regiments of tanks as well as a strong battalion of reconnaissance and artillery

Compared to the DCR ( with the equivalent of 2 regiments of tanks and a battalion of infantry, artillery and no reconnaissance battalion) the DLM would be stronger in my own opinion.

By the way, happy birthday Rick! :smoke:

[Krak]

I am up for a game of this if anyone is interested :)

[Ricky B]

Hello Tortue,

I don't have the game in front of me, so I can't check things out right now. I believe you are saying that the DLM divisions should be considered as armored rather than mechanized, right? I agree that they did have a very balanced mix of forces in them, probably more equivalent to the panzer divisons of 1941-1945 period than a mechanized division, although in 1940 the panzers were fairly heavy in tank strength also.

Exactly, in the game their armored factor is 39 when the one of the DCR is 60. Even if the DCR had a heavy tank (B1Bis) it was slow and unreliable (about 150 tanks in the division), on the other hand the DLM had about 192 tanks in the division, half of them were Somua S35 (with the excellent 47mm on the good side and the small turret on the bad side).

Ah, I see what you are saying, David. Now the strength rating for the DLM is basically twice as high, so that rating seems correct, when including the total power of the tanks and infantry components. Now in reading the combat results help, it states that the attacker mechanized factor is based on strength times armor rating. Based on this, the DLM has a higher mech factor than the DCR, when strength AND armor are accounted for. So based on this total mech factor, which is what counts, then I think the ratings make sense, as I would say that the DLM should have a higher, but not double, mech factor when attacking. Does that make sense?

Anyway, in understanding your point on this, I am not sure it has an impact on combat, being mechanized versus armored. I can't think of any current rule that would cause a different effect from this anyway, as the units have their various ratings including armor, independent of type. For mech and armored units, I think the only impact is on the icons for it - but I may be wrong there.

Regards
Rick

It should change the value of the unit if we take in consideration that:
the DLM had 3 battalions of Infantry, 2 regiments of tanks as well as a strong battalion of reconnaissance and artillery

Compared to the DCR ( with the equivalent of 2 regiments of tanks and a battalion of infantry, artillery and no reconnaissance battalion) the DLM would be stronger in my own opinion.

By the way, happy birthday Rick! :smoke:

Thank you, I got my annual email from Campaigns France wishing me a Joyeaux Anniversaire, always appreciated.

Rick

[Tortue Agile]

From the user manual

Mechanized Factors

The Attacker Mechanized Factor represents the weighted average mechanized factor over all the attacking units. The Attacker Mechanized Factor is

sum0 / total0

where:
· sum0 is the sum of all terms
attacker_strength * attacker_armor,
· total0 is the total of all attacker_strength.

The Defender Mechanized Factor represents the weighted average mechanized factor over all defending units. The Defender Mechanized Factor is

sum1 / total1

where:
· sum1 is the sum of all terms
defender_strength * (defender_armor + defender_anti_tank)
· total1 is the total of all defender_strength.

Note that the defender gets the benefit of their anti-tank values where the attacker does not.

Note also that for a single attacker and defender, the Attacker Mechanized Factor is simply the Attacker's armor value and the Defender Mechanized Value is simply the sum of the defender's armor and anti-tank values.

Mechanized Quotient

For a given armor value Arm and a corresponding Mechanized Factor Mech of the opposing side, the corresponding Mechanized Quotient is given to be

Arm / Mech

except that:
· If the Armor value is 0, then the Mechanized Quotient is 1.
· This value never greater than a parameter data value, which by default is 2.
· This value never is less than 1 over the parameter data value, which by default is 1/2.

I am still struggling to understand how it works

If we look at the 1st DLM:
strength 84, Armor 39, combat 8/8, AT3, AA1

and the 1st DCR
strength 44, Armor 60, combat 10/8, AT3, AA0

What is important to look at to know how each division will perform in attack?

[Ricky B]

From the user manual

Mechanized Factors

The Attacker Mechanized Factor represents the weighted average mechanized factor over all the attacking units. The Attacker Mechanized Factor is

sum0 / total0

where:
· sum0 is the sum of all terms
attacker_strength * attacker_armor,
· total0 is the total of all attacker_strength.

The Defender Mechanized Factor represents the weighted average mechanized factor over all defending units. The Defender Mechanized Factor is

sum1 / total1

where:
· sum1 is the sum of all terms
defender_strength * (defender_armor + defender_anti_tank)
· total1 is the total of all defender_strength.

Note that the defender gets the benefit of their anti-tank values where the attacker does not.

Note also that for a single attacker and defender, the Attacker Mechanized Factor is simply the Attacker's armor value and the Defender Mechanized Value is simply the sum of the defender's armor and anti-tank values.

Mechanized Quotient

For a given armor value Arm and a corresponding Mechanized Factor Mech of the opposing side, the corresponding Mechanized Quotient is given to be

Arm / Mech

except that:
· If the Armor value is 0, then the Mechanized Quotient is 1.
· This value never greater than a parameter data value, which by default is 2.
· This value never is less than 1 over the parameter data value, which by default is 1/2.

I am still struggling to understand how it works

If we look at the 1st DLM:
strength 84, Armor 39, combat 8/8, AT3, AA1

and the 1st DCR
strength 44, Armor 60, combat 10/8, AT3, AA0

What is important to look at to know how each division will perform in attack?

I think there are a number of things to look at, but unfortunately I am not an expert on how it all works. But best I can tell, after calculating the Mech Quotient using the above, the results are used to adjust the odds for the attack by the quotient, or ratio. Ultimately, if the defender has not armor or AT rated units, the adjustment would be to double the odds for either unit. But if a single DCR is attacking, compared to a single DLM, against a defender with armor/at values, it would normally get a higher adjustment to the odds, but with a lower odds to begin with.

In other words, let's say the defender has a strength of 44, same as the DCR, and about half that of the DLM. The DCR would have a basic odds for the attack of 1:1, I believe, based on the same strength, and the DLM would be 1.91. Assuming there are no other adjustments except the armor adjustment, for which let's assume the defender has a defensive mech factor of 30 - I don't know if that is reasonable or not, but any lower and the DLM would be much stronger. Using the 30, the DCR would get an adjustment of 2 times, as its attack mech factor is 60, and 2 times is the max allowed. This would make the DCR attack at 2:1.

The DLM would get a mech modifier of 39/30, or 1.3, making its odds 2.48, or about 25% higher than the DCR would get. Again, if the defender had a lower mech rating, the DLM odds would be higher, and thus its advantage in the attack would be higher, by at much as 90% if both units achieved a 2:! ratio in mech factors over the defender.

Now this is ALL without any friendly units participating the attack. If any did and they were not mech/motorized, then the weaker DCR would have much less impact on the combat based on the way the ratio is calculated, related to the strength of each unit to weight things, so based on all of this, I would still have to say that things seem good here.

Rick

[Tortue Agile]

I was looking at the user manual Combat and Combat Results and I am still struggling with it because there is no example to explain. I am very visual I need to see an example to understand.

If any of you is kind enough to help me understand it I will be more than happy.