FOF loaded!

[RedDevil]

Just a quick heads up here.

FoF is not being kept from our ladder system due to other game company pressures

We are VERY interested in adding this game system and it's future spin offs to the Blitz ladder systems.

Some events have stalled our progress, they are past us now and it is a matter of time and resource allowances in making this addition a flawless process at the moment.

Do not despair, Stay the course and ye shall receive :)

[Steel God]

Acually we have kicked the topic around in the OB a far bit. It's not that we don't want to support it, quite the contrary we're always loking for new games to add to the community...the issue is how best to support it.

The hang up at the moment seems to be that it does not fit easily into the existing ACW Ladder, the existing games being of a different scope and scale (tactical versus strategic). Which means that it may best be supported on another ladder, but which? It's obviously an ACW related game, but if it is an apples and oranges type comparison to the other games on the ladder it impacts the scoring.

Hence the frustration. It is certainly not a matter of it being put out by game company X, as the Blitz is in no way affiliated with any game company or companies.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

HiHi

Here you go.

5 Scenarios;

Standard campaign
Small setup
Southern Steel (November 1861)
The Coming Fury (July 1861)
The Coming Fury (July 1861, Balanced Econ.)

The game is turn based, 2 per month, eg Early July, Late July, so I assume the July games could run 128 turns (check my maths; there is however a 'No time Limit' option)

Victory is is by gaining 24 Victory points (the VPs alter during the game depending on whats happening, eg succesful blockade, victory in battle, capture of a city etc), or when one player has 32 VPs more than the other side. (eg Feds -22 VP, Rebs 10 VP).

There is a replay feature, (seperate file)

Errr, Ummm, not sure what else Thunder needs so please let me know and I will try and fill in the Blanks.

All the best
Peter

Time is the key factor in determining point values for completing a "game".
Obviously PBEM time can be compared to other games you play on this, or other ladders?
We then will look at the length of an average turn and set a value compared to the benchmark, Combat Mission.

Does the game have multiple win, draw, lose - Major win, major loss levels of victory or is the game won by gaining the 24 point total?
It becomes a win or lose situation we can determine how many points to play and win, while seeing that the loser earns points for playing.

Time to play a turn and complete an average game is the information that we most would need.

Some ladders have variable levels of victory designed to balance out the individual game compared to others on the same ladder.

If anyone can respond I can sharpen my pencil and crunch some numbers. :)

128 turns in a single game?
We may need some "Ladder Commander" bonus points for game completion? ;)
You can respond to this thread and I will check it daily. Or, send me an PM or e-mail. I want to help get this puppy a spot and point system that has it fairly rated against any ladder. :thumbs_up:

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Hey guys it was tounge in cheek, I was in no way trying to question Blitz GHQ integrity and cheers (RD & SG) to you both for such a swift reply.

Thats fine can happily leave you guys in peace & quiet to do whatever is needed, but please just call if you need any input from an active FoF player, got 2 PBEMs on the go at the moment (I'm sure some of the other guys would help out as well).

For what it's worth, I personally feel it would be better if FoFcould be kept on the current ACW ladder, but I ain't got a clue as to scoring systems, administration (ie hard work) involved etc. so that merely remains my opinion.

Thanks again.

All the Best
Peter

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Sorry Mr RR yours came in while I was posting mine (thanks to you to).

OK I have asked one of my current opponents to come looksee as he has far more experiance than me, I will try and get some stuff from my PBEM games later, but am gonna go over to the guys at GWS with your list, they were really supportive on the Matrix forum so hopefully they will be able to help as they have obviously been through the whole beta/game testing thing, I've only had the game from January (no life! ... just the game! :-) )

Catch you when I have some stuff for you.

All the best
Peter

[Herr Straße Laufer]

HiHi

Sorry Mr RR yours came in while I was posting mine (thanks to you to).

OK I have asked one of my current opponents to come looksee as he has far more experiance than me, I will try and get some stuff from my PBEM games later, but am gonna go over to the guys at GWS with your list, they were really supportive on the Matrix forum so hopefully they will be able to help as they have obviously been through the whole beta/game testing thing, I've only had the game from January (no life! ... just the game! :-) )

Catch you when I have some stuff for you.

All the best
Peter

No worries! I am slower on the uptake compared to Randy and Paul.

https://www.theblitz.club/newsletter/august06.php This link will take you to the Newsletter article that shows how scoring was revamped. I hope it helps.
We are committed to helping out. New games for ladders only help the club to stay fresh and grow? :)

I'll do a little research on the side but, direct feedback is always the best.

[milrevko]

I am a current beta tester for Crown of Glory II and am currently play testing Forge of Freedom (FOF) v1.10.10 (very much an on going process.) In prior years I was involved in the updating and play testing a board game called 'War between the State'

If Blitz would care to add FOF to its ladder I would be more that happy to work with any player that would like to learn the system. I am completaly impresses with the grand strategic play of this system. The production alone makes this a great game not to mention initiative checks for leaders, supply, weather and even the distribution of weapons (after seeing green troop throw down the weapons and run manfully away, you learn to give the good guns to veteran troops...btw the winner of the battle gets to 'police' the battle field and possibly pick up discarded weapon.)

There is a brigade combat system but I prefer to get my Civil War tactical fix from HPS or Battleground.

If this game is added it will be an asset to Blitz and its players.


Sincerely,
Frank

[milrevko]

'Does the game have multiple win, draw, lose - Major win, major loss levels of victory or is the game won by gaining the 24 point total?'

It becomes a win or lose situation we can determine how many points to play and win, while seeing that the loser earns points for playing.

'Time to play a turn and complete an average game is the information that we most would need.'

A turn by the CSA can be done in 15 minutes or a play can micro manage it out to half an hour. With mustering troop and conscription it can take longer. As for production most players have an idea of what they want to build decided before hand by the event of the prior turn.

Some ladders have variable levels of victory designed to balance out the individual game compared to others on the same ladder.

If anyone can respond I can sharpen my pencil and crunch some numbers.

'128 turns in a single game?'

100 turns (August 1865 with the July start) is a better average but the biggest question what has been accomplished in those turns. Does the CSA still hold Richmond? So much of the game is centered on State and the National Capitol it makes the defense of the states critical to the CSA production. If a state losses its capitol, the areas stop producing. Sometime you can take out a capital with out reducing the areas of the state sometimes you have to reduce the state piece by piece.


I would really say that the Game and the Civil War are/were very Richmond centric. IF the USA can muscle its way to Richmond, work its way through the forts system and then take the city things are grim indeed for the CSA.

I have always assumed the best way to judge a mirrored game is the least number of turns it takes to capture 9 of the 11 CSA capitols including Richmond. (Assuming that no USA capitols are in CSA hands)

[Mad Russian]

As a Union player in an ongoing PBEM game I do my turns in under an hour normally.

The target is first of all who wins and then secondly how fast. Since I haven't finished the first PBEM game of this yet I can't tell you what the end result is other than a win.

We started the game less than a month ago and we are already to October 1862 and we are playing the long historical version...go figure....lol....

It plays FAST and it's one of those games you can't wait to see files in your inbox for.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Right to give you some sort of perspective on the state of my, “experience”, with FoF PBEM, I have been involved in 5 so far, 2 against a chap that was somewhat impatient and tactically inept and went off in a Huff blaming it all on faults within the game, I ditched those files so no info there.

1 completed game and one currently on the go v’s Frank, and 1 other with another Blitz member on hold as he is “Out of Town” for a while.

Info from my PBEM folder

1st game v Frank, walloped in 49 turns, starting 23-03-08, finishing 19-04-08, playing an average of 4 turns a day. (November game start date)

Second game v Frank, to date, 42 turns (the walloping looks on the cards again :-( ), starting 19-04-08, again average about 4 turns a day. (July game start date)

We have really been hammering the returns in over the weekends so the average is somewhat iffy, and please bear in mind Frank is a very, very good player with lots of experience through FoF Beta testing so the quickness in game completed time is not really that good an indication of how long an average game might last.

On hold game v Krec, 9 turns starting 12-04-08 on hold from 19-04-08 average 1 turn a day.

I have emailed the guys at GWS and am keeping fingers crossed (makes typing bloody awkward!) they will get back to me offering assistance with Data re time taken for games during the beta testing etc.

Mmmm, I think Franks experience is showing when he suggests an average of ½ hour to do a turn, I would suggest an average of 1 hour, but then maybe I’m slow.

The following is how I see things and therefore open to question;

Complexity, I will try and give some context but I only really have in-depth experience from playing BG ACW/Waterloo games (Motorised transport!? In War!? Don't be silly boy it would scare the Horses!" exit stage left one outraged Col Blimp) so I am gonna have to compare against Gettysburg & Chickamauga (my 2 favourites). Apart from the basic difference between the strategy nature of FoF & the close order tactics of BG games, actual game play is also different in that with say G’burg you have (even allowing for Fog of War) complete visual input on the screen to guide your actions in the battle, if you have the movement points you can move stuff and it will go, you can see exactly how much supply you have and where & when the next lot is coming from, Arty ammo is fixed at the start of the game, etc, etc Well with FoF basically you don’t have any of that, the complexity comes in the juggling of your recourses.

So, as a simplified example, the South (I have only played the Good guys, so I know nothing about Feds set up) is way, way deficient in Iron compared to the Feds and desperately needs to build an Iron foundry (doubles Iron output in that city), OK, fine, build one! ... it takes 24 turns and eats up both money and labour, something the South is again chronically short of (actually the only thing the south ain’t really short on is courage), ... but I gotta have iron for my forts and armaments, ... well you can’t build your forts without labour & money, ... which you have just spent on your foundry ... OK, leave the foundry till later then ... but it takes 24 turns I need Iron desperately NOW!

And so it goes on for each resource, for every state, for every unit, how do I allocate my given resources and build for the future in a balanced way (the game is very unforgiving if you get it wrong) while keeping Yankee hordes out of the Goat pens (I’ve have heard the stories about Yankee sexual atrocities!).

Movement is again starkly different between the game systems, in FoF you can’t just point you units in the direction you want them to go, pat them on the head and wait for them to go, all sorts of other factors can intervene such as the Weather, the initiative of the Commander, the phase within a turn that events happen, the availability of rail transport etc. It can be highly frustrating when your units don’t go when or where you ordered them to, but that is in someways part of the realistic nature of the game, think about the cock-up involving Beauregard’s orders to the army before Shiloh, or the Peninsular campaign etc. From the bitter experience of having a Corps command by my highest initiative commander, i.e. Lee, caught and badly mauled by a much larger army I can appreciate how much this game is out to get you! :(

Mmmm, :chin: reading back over this I’m aware I might be waffling, losing the plot or whatever and not supplying the info you need so I will close this down, if you feel more comparisons, re complexity are needed then let me know, suffice to say in my opinion FoF is far more complex as a game than BG G’burg/Chickamauga, and should be scored so.

Briefly, again my opinion, something along these lines might work, either scoring for the 5 scenarios at game level i.e. Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, or, alternatively make a Command decision that Blitz will only support FoF at Advanced level to start with (that may be the way to go till further Data comes in, I seriously doubt many folk will PBEM at Basic level more than once, but then again, that could be the route out of Bootcamp ??)

The game really doesn’t have a Minor win/loose setup unless agreed between the two players on a voluntary basis.

A Draw score at a half way mark should be included to allow players the choice of honourably agreeing one , e.g. an unforeseen time factor forcing one player to need out, again a voluntary thing but one I feel should be catered for.

So a limited (very) comparison for scoring might be

BG Gettysburg historical at 149 turns, Major victory = 70 points

FoF July start 100 (120?) turns, victory = 70 pts + whatever for complexity etc.

Looser points as for G’burg above but something extra for the complexity etc.

Right, “Nuff for now”, but please do come back for anything you feel I may be able to help with, and Ill try and supply.

All the Best
Peter