D'85: Helicopters..the final verdict!

[HirooOnoda]

Guilty. Get rid of them. The way they are handled in the game, D'85, leads to what I consider "ahistorical" play.

I can see leaving in the airmobile troops, but the strike helicopters just don't work in the game.

I spend the majority of my efforts worry about them and deploying my troops in "anti-helicopter" formations designed to trap a handful of these units.

And the D'85 update, while superior to the previous versions of MC, still find these units, especially the American units, dominating the game. :hissy:

If history shows us anything, and the one major fight that the one American Air Cav unit had against a Republican Guard unit in 2003, helicopters are overrated in combat.


By all means, include helicopters as a very effective air-strike, especially at night, but I for one could do without them.

Just my 2 cents.

[Glenn Saunders]

Guilty. Get rid of them. The way they are handled in the game, D'85, leads to what I consider "ahistorical" play.
....
Just my 2 cents.

Of course it is your pennys. And feel free to remove them with the editors as we have no plans to change helicopters.

Glenn

[HirooOnoda]

Thanks for your input Glenn.

I remember back in like 2005 when we all complained about Helicopters in FG'85 and you guys said the same thing.

It took you 3 years, but you changed.

Just go to show, nothing is constant.

[Elxaime]

In his Bolt from the Blue scenario, the designer addressed the issue by reducing helicopter defense values, upping the counterbattery values (which affects AAA op-fire attacks) and adding in the mobile SAM assets each side had (e.g. more NATO Hawk and Roland, Pact SAM-6) which are currently abstracted in the HQ units in D85. A different approach, but it seems to be working in the games I have played. You still see people sending their helos deep behind the lines or placing them and leaving them right on the front line, but they pay a heavy price.

I would reduce the defense values even more if it was me, since it seems to me that helos were pretty fragile assets when confronted by modern air defense systems in number operated by a quality opponent. I seem to recall the US Army helos in Albania during the 1999 Kosovo war never got off the ground for fear of the losses that would have been sustained against unsuppressed Serb AAA and SAM (Manpads).

[Glenn Saunders]

In his Bolt from the Blue scenario, the designer addressed the issue by reducing helicopter defense values,

Actually - he increased the def values - rather drastically if I recall. His Cobras are Def = 12., and the default Df has Def = 5

But I think he added more Flak.

Glenn

[Glenn Saunders]

Thanks for your input Glenn.

I remember back in like 2005 when we all complained about Helicopters in FG'85 and you guys said the same thing.

It took you 3 years, but you changed.

Just go to show, nothing is constant.

But three years ago, I still saw the need for change - I just couldn't interest John in doing more. And of course the info (or lack of info) in your post doesn't do much to change my mind either. Seems like you don't like something .... again ... and you suggest we "get rid of them" and as those two titles are games I had a hand in the design, I can safely say I won't ever agree to remove helicpoters from the game and suggest you use the editors.

When we made DF85 we looked at how people were using Helicopters in funny ways and did our best to curb that behavior without making these unit completely ineffective. If players have figured out something new, well, I dunno what I can say. I recall people complaining about the AI in N44 oly to find that the same guys were running AT guns through the lines because the designer gave them a spped which made them useful to sit on Axis reinforcement hexes. That doesn't make the game wrong.

[Tide1]

To take attack helicopters from the games would be rediculous in my opinion. I find the Hinds work well when using them in the role they where designed for.
Attack helicopters especially the American type are designed for stand off attacks not standing toe to toe and slugging it out. They are helicopters not tanks. I remember the Iraq thing this is what happens when not used correctly.

In the western desert, fast-moving 5th Army troops are advancing towards four Republican Guard divisions -- perhaps 40,000 men hidden in the countryside south of Baghdad. Thirty-two Apache helicopters are ordered forward this night to search out and destroy the Guard. The Iraqis spring an ambush and intense small arms fire brings down one Apache. The rest are forced to turn back with almost every helicopter damaged.